I heard that you need to get tuned for raids before you can actually go to Kara. I never raided before in my life, so please help me out. Where can I get tuned properly? All I know is that I need to go to Deadwind Pass, grab some quests, do them and then run instances like ShadowLabs etc. to complete the quests. Please help me!|||It's attuned, not tuned.
Just google "Karazhan attunement quest" and you'll find lots of resources online.
...Ren|||Okay thanks. I thought it was tuned :P|||Indeed, you are send to Deadwind Pass (lv 68 minimum I believe) or go there and the NPCs outside have quests. Those lead you to explore the cellars, collect essences, go to Dalaraan and back to Shattrath.
There you learn that the key to Karazhan is broken in 3 pieces which you find in SL (first quest) and then piece 2 and 3 are in one quest for Arcatraz and SV.
Medivh needs to "bless" these pieces, but since he is dead(?) you first need to rescue Thrall in Old Hillsbrad and then Medivh when he opens the Dark Portal (Caverns of Times in Tanaris).
The attunement is a real pain....and I kinda wonder why this attunement remains, but SSC and TK attunements are removed. Hell..even Zul Aman has no attunement.|||Lore?......|||Quote:
The attunement is a real pain....and I kinda wonder why this attunement remains, but SSC and TK attunements are removed. Hell..even Zul Aman has no attunement.
The attunement is cake. If doing it is hard, you're not ready for Kara. The problem is more finding people for SL etc, but if you can do that this is a few hours of time. As to why it's there... I think because people are jumping into Kara as the entry raid and, if too many walked in completely unprepared and undergeared they'd die horribly on Attumen trash and we'd hear whining day and night.
It's kind of what I think they should have done with heroics... instead of rep for the keys, have a quest item at the end of each instance... get all 3 from the Hellfire instances and you can get the key (or some riff on this concept).|||I think he means that the attunement is hard because finding people is a real pain. Plus, some of them leave in the middle of the instance.
Saturday, April 21, 2012
Xp through instances
Hi there.
With my new healer I've noticed how much of a pain it is to quest compared to my warlock (duh).
So I wonder. Is it possible to level more or less entirely through instances?|||It's possible, yes, but it takes ages. You're better off questing, especially now that the new patch raised the xp given for completing quests.
An example: last week I got a boost through DM from a lvl 63 friend for my lvl 10 Priest. After running through it I had managed to go up 1 level. It didn't take that long to complete the instance, but it was still tedious. Imagine you have to run through it with a group of 5 of equal level.. you may get a bit more xp for the kills, but compared to the time you need to spend there it's next to nothing.
And as for questing, spec Shadow Priest. You can always respec to Holy later, if you want to focus on healing in groups or raids, but for solo Shadow really is the way to go.|||On the other hand, picking up every single quest for an instance, and then clearing it with help can provide a nice chunk of XP. If you're getting a higher-level friend to drag you through somewhere, try and make sure you have all the quests possible first, so you benefit as much as possible.|||if the char is only a twink who you dont play too often, instancing can be a good idea. if you want to be fast with leveling, questing is the way to go.
i play both my twinks in instances mostly, and it goes ok. lvl 48-49 took me two maraudon princess runs, for example. maybe 3 hours total. But i only play this twink if i have full resting bonus :)|||A guildmate of mine levelled from 10 to 70 in Holy spec. The majority of the levelling was done in, you guessed it, instances.|||good news... good news, thank you|||Once you hit the BC area, I suggest lvling in instances. It helps with rep and gear.
Then doing the quests at 70 for cash.
With my new healer I've noticed how much of a pain it is to quest compared to my warlock (duh).
So I wonder. Is it possible to level more or less entirely through instances?|||It's possible, yes, but it takes ages. You're better off questing, especially now that the new patch raised the xp given for completing quests.
An example: last week I got a boost through DM from a lvl 63 friend for my lvl 10 Priest. After running through it I had managed to go up 1 level. It didn't take that long to complete the instance, but it was still tedious. Imagine you have to run through it with a group of 5 of equal level.. you may get a bit more xp for the kills, but compared to the time you need to spend there it's next to nothing.
And as for questing, spec Shadow Priest. You can always respec to Holy later, if you want to focus on healing in groups or raids, but for solo Shadow really is the way to go.|||On the other hand, picking up every single quest for an instance, and then clearing it with help can provide a nice chunk of XP. If you're getting a higher-level friend to drag you through somewhere, try and make sure you have all the quests possible first, so you benefit as much as possible.|||if the char is only a twink who you dont play too often, instancing can be a good idea. if you want to be fast with leveling, questing is the way to go.
i play both my twinks in instances mostly, and it goes ok. lvl 48-49 took me two maraudon princess runs, for example. maybe 3 hours total. But i only play this twink if i have full resting bonus :)|||A guildmate of mine levelled from 10 to 70 in Holy spec. The majority of the levelling was done in, you guessed it, instances.|||good news... good news, thank you|||Once you hit the BC area, I suggest lvling in instances. It helps with rep and gear.
Then doing the quests at 70 for cash.
KZ trash - worth farming?
My guild is not quite ready for raiding Karazhan. We have a lot of work to do yet, particularly with coordination and with our dps not being skilled or really geared enough for true progression.
However, there is a discussion on the table of farming the trash. This would include the three "spawnable" bosses, and primarily Attumen & Midnight, then working through any trash up to the other easily accessible bosses.
Our intention is for rep, for the 1 heroic badge and for any drops the trash might give.
Is this worth doing?|||Skip the animal boss.
Work on attunemen, clearing the ballroom and working on the maiden.
The maiden is much easier than moroes for most people, just need a paladin or two.|||Why should we skip the animal boss?
And we'll have a healadin and I'll be the maintankadin.|||Quote:
Why should we skip the animal boss?
The animal bosses loot is generally unusable by any class. While there is some rep to be gained, you'd be better off doing Heroic runs to train and gear your DPS and doing banquet hall trash for rep, rather than just grinding rep off of sub-par critters that require no skill and drop crap for loot.|||Actually...if youre just lookin for a shortcut to Maiden, traipsing through the Beast trash is quicker...you come up the back side of the maiden's hallway. Just don't wipe, as teh beast trash respawns fairly quickly.|||Kill attunemen.
clear to maiden and kill her (item you need for the quest is along the way)
The basement is a royal pain. Mobs are invisible, often bugged LoS issues and packed in close down there it just isn't worth it.
If you do attunemen and clear to maiden and attempt her as much as possible you will get some trash epix and it shouldn't take you long to down attunemen and get to the maiden.
I'm not sure how effective TANKADIN's are since 2.3 but we tried one prior to 2.3 and our warrior or a bear was much more effective.
I really don't know since the patch. But since you are a tankadin the ballroom pulls should be easy.|||Quote:
My guild is not quite ready for raiding Karazhan. We have a lot of work to do yet, particularly with coordination and with our dps not being skilled or really geared enough for true progression.
Is this worth doing?
Added the bold but that is why I think it is worth doing. Practice will help you get better with coordination and skill and the gear won't hurt either.|||If you are having problems with dps being skilled start with showing them how to assist.
They also need to know WHO to assist, which should be the MT.
Sometimes the RL will call out targets in vent (by the marks over their head) this helps some people.|||Kara is not that much harder coordination-wise, than 5 mans. It's still basic "mark the targets, make sure people understand what the marks mean, everyone focuses on kill targets in the order specified, let the tank get aggro and don't pull it" stuff.
Now, you have to know the fights, but start with WoWwiki for that... If you don't know about that the Spectral Chargers in Attumen's trash fear, that Attumen himself spawns at 95% and needs to be tanked away from Midnight, etc, etc then you'll struggle. But if you know that stuff and are good at following marks, etc you should be OK.
The only other thing that will hold you back is if most or all of the raid is just nastily undergeared. DPS in all greens will NOT cut it... but most DPS can get in blues in a couple of weeks of questing and 5 mans, so that's not a big deal. Same with tanks and healers really, though questing can be harder for them so you might want to group up even for the solo quests just to get everyone doing them and build some team spirit.
In direct answer to your question.. no it's really not worth farming the animal trash and if you can't kill the Attumen trash before it respawns you shouldn't really be in there yet. Yes, there's rep... but rep flows easily if you raid it weekly and you'll be getting epics and the feeling of accomplishment vs "we're just dying to first boss trash all the time, screw this."|||Skip the animal bosses. Do them once so everyone is convinced they are a pain in teh butt.
Do attumen. It's awesome, when you go in there. makes you think about CC tanking etc. I've pretty much got the pulls memorised, and i've written below how I would do it with a totally new group. so here you go:
Mobs on the way to Attumen:
- Handlers will HEAL the horses. Kill them first
- Chargers - will CHARGE and then FEAR. CC them, save till last (easier if only one mob up when you are feared)
- using both tanks to tank is the quickest way, however CCing and having one mob up at a time is the safer way. Your call.
- Most important. mobs have a HIGH resist rate to crowd control. Shackles must be refreshed no less often than 10 seconds. Use a focus-shackle macro. it's superuseful - you WILL need that macro for moroes. Expect ice trap to break early. make sure tanks pick up ice-traps ASAP.
- ZERO DPS until the tank has 5000 threat on the threat meter. Tell em that you will call when to DPS. ANY SINGLE ONE OF THESE MOBS WILL WIPE YOUR RAID. Noob DPS will take some time realising this :D
- if you are fighting trash and an individual dies, they must release and run back in straight away. this can actually really help, especially if your priest-shackler cops it, they can be back in time to throw another shackle
2 tanks, 5 dps. 3 healers, incl at least 1 priest and 1 hunter for shackle and ice trap
01. Buff up in the lobby
02. Grab the horse on the right. bring him back to lobby. Let tank get 5k threat then nuke
03. Grab the two horses straight ahead. Watch out for patrol. Bring back to lobby. Shackle one. Or tank both.
04. Grab patrol. Kill the handler, shackle the horse. Bring them back to lobby
05. everyone can move into the stalls area.
06. Grab the two horses to the left. Wait for the pat to go away. Bring them back to start of stalls
07. Move forward a little. Grab handler, horse and maybe another handler. tab-target as it can be hard to see the 2nd handler
08. If you didnt pull the 2nd handler in (07), wait for him to walk over and grab him on his own.
09. take the two horses to the left, CC as you will or tank both
Now to the two harder pulls, a 4-pull and a 5-pull. Watch out for line-of-sight (Los) and range issues here, the tanks will tend to go through the archways and then be out of LoS for healing.
10. 4-pull - kill handlers first, CC the horses. tank on each handler, once a handler is dead get the first tank to pick up the ice-trap straight away
11. 3 handlers and two horses, one a charger.
- Shackle charger
- ice-trap the other horse
- your strongest tank will multi-tank here. get the hunter to MD 2nd handler to main-tank.
- Kill order is the MT 1st handler, OT 3rd handler, then MT 2nd handler
- The OT must pick up the ice-trap as soon as 3rd handler is dead and build threat while you are killing the 2nd handler
Questions:
- what if an ice-trap resists? Answer - this is where it is nice to have a 2nd hunter or 2nd priest. otherwise, the hunter will have to sacrifice themselves and kite till a tank can pick it up. The best answer - allow the hunter trap cool down to wind up before the pull, so the hunter can immediately drop another trap if there is a resist.
BTW - tankadins - the way i do it these days, the tankadin tanks ALL of the mobs and we AoE them down or /assist
Plenty of attumen strats out there :D
However, there is a discussion on the table of farming the trash. This would include the three "spawnable" bosses, and primarily Attumen & Midnight, then working through any trash up to the other easily accessible bosses.
Our intention is for rep, for the 1 heroic badge and for any drops the trash might give.
Is this worth doing?|||Skip the animal boss.
Work on attunemen, clearing the ballroom and working on the maiden.
The maiden is much easier than moroes for most people, just need a paladin or two.|||Why should we skip the animal boss?
And we'll have a healadin and I'll be the maintankadin.|||Quote:
Why should we skip the animal boss?
The animal bosses loot is generally unusable by any class. While there is some rep to be gained, you'd be better off doing Heroic runs to train and gear your DPS and doing banquet hall trash for rep, rather than just grinding rep off of sub-par critters that require no skill and drop crap for loot.|||Actually...if youre just lookin for a shortcut to Maiden, traipsing through the Beast trash is quicker...you come up the back side of the maiden's hallway. Just don't wipe, as teh beast trash respawns fairly quickly.|||Kill attunemen.
clear to maiden and kill her (item you need for the quest is along the way)
The basement is a royal pain. Mobs are invisible, often bugged LoS issues and packed in close down there it just isn't worth it.
If you do attunemen and clear to maiden and attempt her as much as possible you will get some trash epix and it shouldn't take you long to down attunemen and get to the maiden.
I'm not sure how effective TANKADIN's are since 2.3 but we tried one prior to 2.3 and our warrior or a bear was much more effective.
I really don't know since the patch. But since you are a tankadin the ballroom pulls should be easy.|||Quote:
My guild is not quite ready for raiding Karazhan. We have a lot of work to do yet, particularly with coordination and with our dps not being skilled or really geared enough for true progression.
Is this worth doing?
Added the bold but that is why I think it is worth doing. Practice will help you get better with coordination and skill and the gear won't hurt either.|||If you are having problems with dps being skilled start with showing them how to assist.
They also need to know WHO to assist, which should be the MT.
Sometimes the RL will call out targets in vent (by the marks over their head) this helps some people.|||Kara is not that much harder coordination-wise, than 5 mans. It's still basic "mark the targets, make sure people understand what the marks mean, everyone focuses on kill targets in the order specified, let the tank get aggro and don't pull it" stuff.
Now, you have to know the fights, but start with WoWwiki for that... If you don't know about that the Spectral Chargers in Attumen's trash fear, that Attumen himself spawns at 95% and needs to be tanked away from Midnight, etc, etc then you'll struggle. But if you know that stuff and are good at following marks, etc you should be OK.
The only other thing that will hold you back is if most or all of the raid is just nastily undergeared. DPS in all greens will NOT cut it... but most DPS can get in blues in a couple of weeks of questing and 5 mans, so that's not a big deal. Same with tanks and healers really, though questing can be harder for them so you might want to group up even for the solo quests just to get everyone doing them and build some team spirit.
In direct answer to your question.. no it's really not worth farming the animal trash and if you can't kill the Attumen trash before it respawns you shouldn't really be in there yet. Yes, there's rep... but rep flows easily if you raid it weekly and you'll be getting epics and the feeling of accomplishment vs "we're just dying to first boss trash all the time, screw this."|||Skip the animal bosses. Do them once so everyone is convinced they are a pain in teh butt.
Do attumen. It's awesome, when you go in there. makes you think about CC tanking etc. I've pretty much got the pulls memorised, and i've written below how I would do it with a totally new group. so here you go:
Mobs on the way to Attumen:
- Handlers will HEAL the horses. Kill them first
- Chargers - will CHARGE and then FEAR. CC them, save till last (easier if only one mob up when you are feared)
- using both tanks to tank is the quickest way, however CCing and having one mob up at a time is the safer way. Your call.
- Most important. mobs have a HIGH resist rate to crowd control. Shackles must be refreshed no less often than 10 seconds. Use a focus-shackle macro. it's superuseful - you WILL need that macro for moroes. Expect ice trap to break early. make sure tanks pick up ice-traps ASAP.
- ZERO DPS until the tank has 5000 threat on the threat meter. Tell em that you will call when to DPS. ANY SINGLE ONE OF THESE MOBS WILL WIPE YOUR RAID. Noob DPS will take some time realising this :D
- if you are fighting trash and an individual dies, they must release and run back in straight away. this can actually really help, especially if your priest-shackler cops it, they can be back in time to throw another shackle
2 tanks, 5 dps. 3 healers, incl at least 1 priest and 1 hunter for shackle and ice trap
01. Buff up in the lobby
02. Grab the horse on the right. bring him back to lobby. Let tank get 5k threat then nuke
03. Grab the two horses straight ahead. Watch out for patrol. Bring back to lobby. Shackle one. Or tank both.
04. Grab patrol. Kill the handler, shackle the horse. Bring them back to lobby
05. everyone can move into the stalls area.
06. Grab the two horses to the left. Wait for the pat to go away. Bring them back to start of stalls
07. Move forward a little. Grab handler, horse and maybe another handler. tab-target as it can be hard to see the 2nd handler
08. If you didnt pull the 2nd handler in (07), wait for him to walk over and grab him on his own.
09. take the two horses to the left, CC as you will or tank both
Now to the two harder pulls, a 4-pull and a 5-pull. Watch out for line-of-sight (Los) and range issues here, the tanks will tend to go through the archways and then be out of LoS for healing.
10. 4-pull - kill handlers first, CC the horses. tank on each handler, once a handler is dead get the first tank to pick up the ice-trap straight away
11. 3 handlers and two horses, one a charger.
- Shackle charger
- ice-trap the other horse
- your strongest tank will multi-tank here. get the hunter to MD 2nd handler to main-tank.
- Kill order is the MT 1st handler, OT 3rd handler, then MT 2nd handler
- The OT must pick up the ice-trap as soon as 3rd handler is dead and build threat while you are killing the 2nd handler
Questions:
- what if an ice-trap resists? Answer - this is where it is nice to have a 2nd hunter or 2nd priest. otherwise, the hunter will have to sacrifice themselves and kite till a tank can pick it up. The best answer - allow the hunter trap cool down to wind up before the pull, so the hunter can immediately drop another trap if there is a resist.
BTW - tankadins - the way i do it these days, the tankadin tanks ALL of the mobs and we AoE them down or /assist
Plenty of attumen strats out there :D
Required Raiding Stats - Tier 1 Raids
Hi All,
I apologse if this topic has been covered already. What I am looking for is the minimum required raiding stats, per class, and within class an accepted talent spec (ie. Shadow Priest vs. Holy Priest etc.) for:
1) Entry to Karazhan
2) Mid->End Karazhan
3) Zul'Aman
4) Gruul's Lair
5) Magtheridon's Lair
If there is already a forum topic covering this question, could you be so kind to link it for me.
Thanks in advance.|||it's been covered, but...
For rogues they should start Kara with about 1300AP, 150hit, 20% crit. Combat spec or a trispec Hemo build - 11/2x/2x. They can get away with Mutilate if they really want.
I wouldn't worry about mid-late... they'll get drops that will improve them, but after a few runs they should be 1550+AP, 200+hit and roughly the same crit. This will work fine in Gruul too. I've not run Mags... I'd want a bit more AP and certainly more hit... 1650 and 250 or so.
If you can pull your weight in Gruul and Mag's you can do OK in ZA but you won't make the timed event runs. ZA is HARD for Kara geared raids... the tanks need a TON of hp (16k+) and DPS needs to be able to put out a lot of damage. It's not a run to do in blues.
As a reference I've got about 1750AP, 250ish hit and 22% crit in 3/5 T4 and Kara epics for the rest. I can mess with those numbers a bit depending on how I mix gear.
Have everyone look at the badge gear too... for rogues the boots and bracers are close to as good as you can get and the legs are very good too.|||for any class : good lvl 70 5 man instance blues should get you started in the not so hard fights in karazhan. Crafting profession epics are a welcome bonus, but not needed. So are heroic badge rewards, PvP epics etc.|||Yep, you can clear Karazhan from a starting point of lv 115 blues and rep epics (fully gemmed and enchanted) without too much bother. It's a nice solid place to start. Crafted gear works too, but isn't a must.. There's a load of nice pre-raid gear to get you started. Hell, some of the new heroic badge gear stacks up well to stuff from tier 5 instances :-)|||Thanks, I appreciate the replies.
What I am really looking for is numbers. I am a class and raid leader in my guild and I get a lot of people asking me if they are ready for a particular instance. What I am looking for is minimum numbers to tell them yes/no.
ie.
Gruul -> Warlock
Health = 8000?
Spell damage = 1000+
Spell hit = 16%
Spell crit = 25% (if destro spec)
etc.|||i think numbers are the wrong aproach.
Look at your people. If they put in some effort to get good gear they are ready to go. Best gems available / best enchants available / no green items / mix of quest rewards and 5 man instance blues.
It takes some time and some getting to know you rpeople. But you certainly did that, being a class leader and everything.|||I agree with twoflower, but it's hard to know about the classes which you're not familiar with.
Numbers are nice because they're clear, but the fact is that you can't really say "X" and if someone is shy of that by 2% exclude them... there will always be people who are close but not quite there by the numbers thought they'd do just fine in the run.
I'd use the level 70 instance/quest blues with appropriate gems/enchants as a guideline. It's not that they're blue, but rather that the 70 blues will end up giving you good starter Kara stats. If someone is in half greens... they're not ready. I know I wasn't. A green here or there, esp for some classes where there are greens almost as good as blues will be fine, but half greens in general will not be.
Gruul and beyond... no greens. You should be partially in epics and clothies should have the tailored items (PMC, Spellstrike, FSW, whatever is correct for their class/spec).
Tanks need to be at 490 defense.. they need to push crushing blows off the table.
Do NOT ignore gemming/enchanting. This is a huge indication of 2 things - whether someone cares enough to spend gold on them and whether they understand their class well enough get the right enchants.|||BTW
Tier 1 is L60 gear that drops in Molten Core
Tier 2 is L60 gear that drops in Blackwing Lair
Tier 3 is L60 gear that drops in Naxxramas
Tier 4 is L70 gear that drops in Karazhan, Gruul and Magtheridon|||In regard to gems. I mostly buy the green (not color) lvl'd gems for blues and epics. Should I only put blue (not color) and epic gems into epic items?
Thanks
|madox|||Yes. These are EPIC items. Putting green gems in them simply says you don't care. More than gear stats, you can tell how much someone cares about improving by the gems and enchants they put on their gear. Putting 1g gems in an epic says that you're not serious... at which point a raid leader might say "why draft that person, they're not serious about being as good as they can - they even cheap out on gems?"
Gold is EASY to get and gems and enchants are an easy way to increase and customize the stats of your toon. Now, I hear what you're thinking, I thought it myself... the Blue version is only a point or so better and it's 15x more expensive. True... but over several sockets that becomes 5, 7 or 10 points more of a stats. And THAT is significant.
I apologse if this topic has been covered already. What I am looking for is the minimum required raiding stats, per class, and within class an accepted talent spec (ie. Shadow Priest vs. Holy Priest etc.) for:
1) Entry to Karazhan
2) Mid->End Karazhan
3) Zul'Aman
4) Gruul's Lair
5) Magtheridon's Lair
If there is already a forum topic covering this question, could you be so kind to link it for me.
Thanks in advance.|||it's been covered, but...
For rogues they should start Kara with about 1300AP, 150hit, 20% crit. Combat spec or a trispec Hemo build - 11/2x/2x. They can get away with Mutilate if they really want.
I wouldn't worry about mid-late... they'll get drops that will improve them, but after a few runs they should be 1550+AP, 200+hit and roughly the same crit. This will work fine in Gruul too. I've not run Mags... I'd want a bit more AP and certainly more hit... 1650 and 250 or so.
If you can pull your weight in Gruul and Mag's you can do OK in ZA but you won't make the timed event runs. ZA is HARD for Kara geared raids... the tanks need a TON of hp (16k+) and DPS needs to be able to put out a lot of damage. It's not a run to do in blues.
As a reference I've got about 1750AP, 250ish hit and 22% crit in 3/5 T4 and Kara epics for the rest. I can mess with those numbers a bit depending on how I mix gear.
Have everyone look at the badge gear too... for rogues the boots and bracers are close to as good as you can get and the legs are very good too.|||for any class : good lvl 70 5 man instance blues should get you started in the not so hard fights in karazhan. Crafting profession epics are a welcome bonus, but not needed. So are heroic badge rewards, PvP epics etc.|||Yep, you can clear Karazhan from a starting point of lv 115 blues and rep epics (fully gemmed and enchanted) without too much bother. It's a nice solid place to start. Crafted gear works too, but isn't a must.. There's a load of nice pre-raid gear to get you started. Hell, some of the new heroic badge gear stacks up well to stuff from tier 5 instances :-)|||Thanks, I appreciate the replies.
What I am really looking for is numbers. I am a class and raid leader in my guild and I get a lot of people asking me if they are ready for a particular instance. What I am looking for is minimum numbers to tell them yes/no.
ie.
Gruul -> Warlock
Health = 8000?
Spell damage = 1000+
Spell hit = 16%
Spell crit = 25% (if destro spec)
etc.|||i think numbers are the wrong aproach.
Look at your people. If they put in some effort to get good gear they are ready to go. Best gems available / best enchants available / no green items / mix of quest rewards and 5 man instance blues.
It takes some time and some getting to know you rpeople. But you certainly did that, being a class leader and everything.|||I agree with twoflower, but it's hard to know about the classes which you're not familiar with.
Numbers are nice because they're clear, but the fact is that you can't really say "X" and if someone is shy of that by 2% exclude them... there will always be people who are close but not quite there by the numbers thought they'd do just fine in the run.
I'd use the level 70 instance/quest blues with appropriate gems/enchants as a guideline. It's not that they're blue, but rather that the 70 blues will end up giving you good starter Kara stats. If someone is in half greens... they're not ready. I know I wasn't. A green here or there, esp for some classes where there are greens almost as good as blues will be fine, but half greens in general will not be.
Gruul and beyond... no greens. You should be partially in epics and clothies should have the tailored items (PMC, Spellstrike, FSW, whatever is correct for their class/spec).
Tanks need to be at 490 defense.. they need to push crushing blows off the table.
Do NOT ignore gemming/enchanting. This is a huge indication of 2 things - whether someone cares enough to spend gold on them and whether they understand their class well enough get the right enchants.|||BTW
Tier 1 is L60 gear that drops in Molten Core
Tier 2 is L60 gear that drops in Blackwing Lair
Tier 3 is L60 gear that drops in Naxxramas
Tier 4 is L70 gear that drops in Karazhan, Gruul and Magtheridon|||In regard to gems. I mostly buy the green (not color) lvl'd gems for blues and epics. Should I only put blue (not color) and epic gems into epic items?
Thanks
|madox|||Yes. These are EPIC items. Putting green gems in them simply says you don't care. More than gear stats, you can tell how much someone cares about improving by the gems and enchants they put on their gear. Putting 1g gems in an epic says that you're not serious... at which point a raid leader might say "why draft that person, they're not serious about being as good as they can - they even cheap out on gems?"
Gold is EASY to get and gems and enchants are an easy way to increase and customize the stats of your toon. Now, I hear what you're thinking, I thought it myself... the Blue version is only a point or so better and it's 15x more expensive. True... but over several sockets that becomes 5, 7 or 10 points more of a stats. And THAT is significant.
Rate my gear in terms of being Kara-Ready. Thanks!
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...oon&n=Magnalon
As an enhancement shaman, the only things i'm not positive about are my shoulders and feet.
I know that the feet are listed by many as being Kara ready, but I just wanted to check.
Also, i'm getting these for my shoulders soon - http://www.wowwiki.com/Gladiator%27s_Linked_Spaulders
Thanks!|||Your gear is fine...Just go to kara and have fun.|||You posted this in the shaman forum. I responded there, this is a double post|||Quote:
You posted this in the shaman forum. I responded there, this is a double post
Oops - sorry :( - I thought my shaman post didn't go through because it had a 404 error after posting so I figured the board was messed up.
Thanks again for responding Justin!|||need more hit for kara imo.|||Quote:
need more hit for kara imo.
Unless you are a rogue, hit past the cap is not even close to as good as crit. AP is even better in most cases. Stop spreading false information.
As an enhancement shaman, the only things i'm not positive about are my shoulders and feet.
I know that the feet are listed by many as being Kara ready, but I just wanted to check.
Also, i'm getting these for my shoulders soon - http://www.wowwiki.com/Gladiator%27s_Linked_Spaulders
Thanks!|||Your gear is fine...Just go to kara and have fun.|||You posted this in the shaman forum. I responded there, this is a double post|||Quote:
You posted this in the shaman forum. I responded there, this is a double post
Oops - sorry :( - I thought my shaman post didn't go through because it had a 404 error after posting so I figured the board was messed up.
Thanks again for responding Justin!|||need more hit for kara imo.|||Quote:
need more hit for kara imo.
Unless you are a rogue, hit past the cap is not even close to as good as crit. AP is even better in most cases. Stop spreading false information.
raid sign ups
my guild uses group calendar mod for sign ups to raids and though it works pretty well it has a major down side that we can only set it to a number of each class. but we all know paladins heal or tank and warriors tank or dps.
do any of you guys use an ingame sign up that allows us to set a team make up of say
3 healers
2 tanks
2 mellee
3 ranged dps
after the number of places are filled then anyone else who adds name will be down as a reserve.
then we would be able to set a much fairer system of sign ups by all members|||There's no in-game addon that allows that, that I am aware of. I'd love to see one though.
On our website, we have folks sign up based on raid "role" for 10-person instances.
For 25-person instances, it is set up by class with the ability for someone to leave a "note" such as shadowpriests indicating they are DPS, Feral Druids, Protection Paladins, etc.|||Funny we're looking for the same thing. We're a casual guild with kara cleared, in ZA and gruul on farm... but we have a wide enough raneg of people that Guild Event Manager doesn't work that well for us since it is a first come, first served system.
We're looking for something that allows anyone to signup, but the raid leader to draft the 10 that they want since sometimes people who aren't ready for the raid signup.|||Use a website.
Use class officers.
Create a thread on the website that says "25 man raid ready" or "gruul raid ready"
Each class officer creates a thread and lists the people who are geared for 25 man raids in his/her thread.
This relieves some work from the raid leader.
It removes confusion.
It causes people to directly ask "how can i get better?" and then go work on it.
It also leads to gear reviews, which I perform many of for certain classes in our guild.
We do this, and unfortunately our site is down for server maintenance right this second or I would refer you to it.
we used gem previously, it isn't robust enough.
Also, when you apply the raid calendar on the site is well people start using the website and it makes for a great communication hub.|||Yeah, we looked into GEM because we had the "Oh i forget to check the site" issue... which I personally have no sympathy for.
Do you use raidspace or anything? Or just threads in the forums?|||we are setting up a kara ready rank and 25 man ready rank so we can get respective players to sign up first come first served its just the problems are 3 warlocks sign up b4 a mage or shad priest then 2 locks get upset.
but i suppose you cant please all the people all of the time|||We use Raidninja, with 2 cores for each class and 2 reserves. Also our Maintank, Raidleader and the guys who maintain the forums (2 Paladins) get auto-signed.
After that, invites are still handled according to raid needs, meaning if we do Leotheras on a day where the tanking warlock could only sign as reserve, because 2 guys were faster, he still gets prio.|||We used web-based signup, but the actual raid setup isn't always the same as the signups, as we need precise class/spec balances for some fights, and we sometimes have too many X or Y signed up, and need to sub people.|||Group Calendar, and set it to manual (not auto) confirmations. Then you can accept the signups a couple of days before.
To be honest, my last guild were calendar nazis. My guild, I set a general schedule for the week then never look at signups. Everyone knows what time invites go out, if they feel like raiding they will be there. that's really the bottom line - if you are having trouble with signups, it means you are having trouble motivating people to raid.
It goes something like:
- wed Gruul (if enough), Kara or ZA
- thu kara
- fri kara
- sat ZA
then the guys will organise another kara over the weekend for alts
Monday's are sometimes spent cleaning out the dregs in kara or premades for BGs|||The problem with saying "If they're interested they'll be online" is that you might have 15 people interested in Kara... so they all log on... and you have 10 spots. No biggee, right? But my guild is mostly made up of slightly older folks (25-35 and some over) so that they may well have better things to do that login and hope they have a raid spot. Or they will be planning their week and want to KNOW if they have a spot next Friday, because if not they're going out to a movie, or accepting some invite to have dinner, etc. They aren't going to keep everything open in the hopes of raiding, nor should they have to.
do any of you guys use an ingame sign up that allows us to set a team make up of say
3 healers
2 tanks
2 mellee
3 ranged dps
after the number of places are filled then anyone else who adds name will be down as a reserve.
then we would be able to set a much fairer system of sign ups by all members|||There's no in-game addon that allows that, that I am aware of. I'd love to see one though.
On our website, we have folks sign up based on raid "role" for 10-person instances.
For 25-person instances, it is set up by class with the ability for someone to leave a "note" such as shadowpriests indicating they are DPS, Feral Druids, Protection Paladins, etc.|||Funny we're looking for the same thing. We're a casual guild with kara cleared, in ZA and gruul on farm... but we have a wide enough raneg of people that Guild Event Manager doesn't work that well for us since it is a first come, first served system.
We're looking for something that allows anyone to signup, but the raid leader to draft the 10 that they want since sometimes people who aren't ready for the raid signup.|||Use a website.
Use class officers.
Create a thread on the website that says "25 man raid ready" or "gruul raid ready"
Each class officer creates a thread and lists the people who are geared for 25 man raids in his/her thread.
This relieves some work from the raid leader.
It removes confusion.
It causes people to directly ask "how can i get better?" and then go work on it.
It also leads to gear reviews, which I perform many of for certain classes in our guild.
We do this, and unfortunately our site is down for server maintenance right this second or I would refer you to it.
we used gem previously, it isn't robust enough.
Also, when you apply the raid calendar on the site is well people start using the website and it makes for a great communication hub.|||Yeah, we looked into GEM because we had the "Oh i forget to check the site" issue... which I personally have no sympathy for.
Do you use raidspace or anything? Or just threads in the forums?|||we are setting up a kara ready rank and 25 man ready rank so we can get respective players to sign up first come first served its just the problems are 3 warlocks sign up b4 a mage or shad priest then 2 locks get upset.
but i suppose you cant please all the people all of the time|||We use Raidninja, with 2 cores for each class and 2 reserves. Also our Maintank, Raidleader and the guys who maintain the forums (2 Paladins) get auto-signed.
After that, invites are still handled according to raid needs, meaning if we do Leotheras on a day where the tanking warlock could only sign as reserve, because 2 guys were faster, he still gets prio.|||We used web-based signup, but the actual raid setup isn't always the same as the signups, as we need precise class/spec balances for some fights, and we sometimes have too many X or Y signed up, and need to sub people.|||Group Calendar, and set it to manual (not auto) confirmations. Then you can accept the signups a couple of days before.
To be honest, my last guild were calendar nazis. My guild, I set a general schedule for the week then never look at signups. Everyone knows what time invites go out, if they feel like raiding they will be there. that's really the bottom line - if you are having trouble with signups, it means you are having trouble motivating people to raid.
It goes something like:
- wed Gruul (if enough), Kara or ZA
- thu kara
- fri kara
- sat ZA
then the guys will organise another kara over the weekend for alts
Monday's are sometimes spent cleaning out the dregs in kara or premades for BGs|||The problem with saying "If they're interested they'll be online" is that you might have 15 people interested in Kara... so they all log on... and you have 10 spots. No biggee, right? But my guild is mostly made up of slightly older folks (25-35 and some over) so that they may well have better things to do that login and hope they have a raid spot. Or they will be planning their week and want to KNOW if they have a spot next Friday, because if not they're going out to a movie, or accepting some invite to have dinner, etc. They aren't going to keep everything open in the hopes of raiding, nor should they have to.
RoS
every time we kill RoS, we stay in combat till everyone left the instance. This gives problems for looting if the ML is dead aswell as slowing us down. Anyone else having this problem ?|||I don't think we've ever encountered this problem.|||strange, because we realy had this happen every kill the last month. 4 times in a row. only option is everyone dieing, because normaly we dont have enugh people alive to make it out of the room again. or everyone ports out and zone sin again, which is even more time consuming.
tonight, we had someone alive who could rezz ( he was the only one not in combat, a shaman who self rezzed ) and he rezzed us all. we were in combat all the way trough the trash to teron gorefiend. Only way that people got rid of the bug was dieing, porting, mage invisability, rogue vanish.|||Perhaps try alt+f4ing out?|||have had it happen to us for months now, every time
solution - everyone put on their neck before ROS, or just clear to shahraz in combat, or pull 20 packs and die|||well, we still have this bug every week.
our solution was to have a mage use invisability, get out of combat, create a portal to shattrath, everyone take it and go back to BT with the amu from illidan. Takes about 5 minutes, still way too much, but it is the best thing we came up with.
I still dont know what causes that bug -.-
tonight, we had someone alive who could rezz ( he was the only one not in combat, a shaman who self rezzed ) and he rezzed us all. we were in combat all the way trough the trash to teron gorefiend. Only way that people got rid of the bug was dieing, porting, mage invisability, rogue vanish.|||Perhaps try alt+f4ing out?|||have had it happen to us for months now, every time
solution - everyone put on their neck before ROS, or just clear to shahraz in combat, or pull 20 packs and die|||well, we still have this bug every week.
our solution was to have a mage use invisability, get out of combat, create a portal to shattrath, everyone take it and go back to BT with the amu from illidan. Takes about 5 minutes, still way too much, but it is the best thing we came up with.
I still dont know what causes that bug -.-
How fast does -your- guild clear Kara?
See topic, just trying to gauge on how long it should really take a guild to clear kara.|||4 hours tops. That is whit twinks, btw.|||I should point out that Twoflower's guild is, I think, rather well-progressed.
As another data point:
We first cleared kara about 2 months ago, and now we do it regularly in two evenings of 3 hours each. Except the basement animal boss, because we can't be arsed.
EDIT: But for a while after the first clear it was 3 nights. Usually one up to and including Aran (skipping Maiden and attumen), the second for the other 2nd half bosses (inc. nightbane), and the third to mop up Attumen & Maiden. As people got more practised and better geared this dropped to two evenings. If our raids were longer than 3 hrs we probably wouldn't be far off doing it in one night now, especially when we find soon that nobody wants anything off Attumen any more.|||Our top team clears in 4 hours, my group clears in 4.5-5.
Hmm, now that I think about it, define "clear". Is that all the optional bosses? We clear everybody except Illhoof and Nightbane in 4.5-5. We kill those on a second night, and that takes about an hour to 90 minutes.|||Kara eh? usually takes about an hour for me...
30 mins to get everyone online
15 mins to get everyone summoned
10 mins for 7 people to leave because 3 people "just wanna finish this BG up"
3 mins for the remaning people to complain about how we dont have enough people
1 min for people to start cussing out the raid leader
and 1 more min before he boots everyone out and calls them "useless"
|||Staying on Topic, I have a question, is there a guide about the Kara Dungeon on here? If so, can you PM me the link, i'm really intrested, since alot of people do this.|||Quote:
Staying on Topic, I have a question, is there a guide about the Kara Dungeon on here? If so, can you PM me the link, i'm really intrested, since alot of people do this.
Try the site with boss killers in its URL.|||Fastest clear was 5 hours for all bosses including the optionals.
We only raid for 3 hours tho, so it was done in two sittings regardless.|||We've only just cleared it in the last couple of weeks; as a "newly clearing guild" we do it over 2 nights, probably about 7 hours; thats all bosses, except the basement animal ones.
Hope to cut that time down, but we're still taking a couple of tries on Prince, Nightbane, and Netherspite at the moment.|||Used to be two evenings for most everything, then bane by himself on the last day.
But, I was tired of being... tired in the morning. And late for work sometimes. And sleepy.
I wasnt the only one. Plus it was burning me out.
We go at it pretty casual. Firs half of kara on one day. Then curator / prince, or bane / curator, or maybe 3 bosses depending.
If they dont get "total full clear" for the week, no one freaks. Im more conerned about 25 man days.
If we get our T4 peices and a few ups, im happy.
"Full clear" has become harder with 2 groups because of classes. Like, one group didnt have melee for shade. Other group did. So they did shade, we skipped. But we had people for bane. However, I dont wanna recruit MORE melee just to make shade easier. I'll end up with too many melees for 25 man days when everyone shows.
Its just shade. And we D/E his stuff all the time.
As another data point:
We first cleared kara about 2 months ago, and now we do it regularly in two evenings of 3 hours each. Except the basement animal boss, because we can't be arsed.
EDIT: But for a while after the first clear it was 3 nights. Usually one up to and including Aran (skipping Maiden and attumen), the second for the other 2nd half bosses (inc. nightbane), and the third to mop up Attumen & Maiden. As people got more practised and better geared this dropped to two evenings. If our raids were longer than 3 hrs we probably wouldn't be far off doing it in one night now, especially when we find soon that nobody wants anything off Attumen any more.|||Our top team clears in 4 hours, my group clears in 4.5-5.
Hmm, now that I think about it, define "clear". Is that all the optional bosses? We clear everybody except Illhoof and Nightbane in 4.5-5. We kill those on a second night, and that takes about an hour to 90 minutes.|||Kara eh? usually takes about an hour for me...
30 mins to get everyone online
15 mins to get everyone summoned
10 mins for 7 people to leave because 3 people "just wanna finish this BG up"
3 mins for the remaning people to complain about how we dont have enough people
1 min for people to start cussing out the raid leader
and 1 more min before he boots everyone out and calls them "useless"
|||Staying on Topic, I have a question, is there a guide about the Kara Dungeon on here? If so, can you PM me the link, i'm really intrested, since alot of people do this.|||Quote:
Staying on Topic, I have a question, is there a guide about the Kara Dungeon on here? If so, can you PM me the link, i'm really intrested, since alot of people do this.
Try the site with boss killers in its URL.|||Fastest clear was 5 hours for all bosses including the optionals.
We only raid for 3 hours tho, so it was done in two sittings regardless.|||We've only just cleared it in the last couple of weeks; as a "newly clearing guild" we do it over 2 nights, probably about 7 hours; thats all bosses, except the basement animal ones.
Hope to cut that time down, but we're still taking a couple of tries on Prince, Nightbane, and Netherspite at the moment.|||Used to be two evenings for most everything, then bane by himself on the last day.
But, I was tired of being... tired in the morning. And late for work sometimes. And sleepy.
I wasnt the only one. Plus it was burning me out.
We go at it pretty casual. Firs half of kara on one day. Then curator / prince, or bane / curator, or maybe 3 bosses depending.
If they dont get "total full clear" for the week, no one freaks. Im more conerned about 25 man days.
If we get our T4 peices and a few ups, im happy.
"Full clear" has become harder with 2 groups because of classes. Like, one group didnt have melee for shade. Other group did. So they did shade, we skipped. But we had people for bane. However, I dont wanna recruit MORE melee just to make shade easier. I'll end up with too many melees for 25 man days when everyone shows.
Its just shade. And we D/E his stuff all the time.
How is your server keeping up ?
i noticed that on my server, 5 guilds have BC completely cleared, with 3 more who have Hyjal cleared and closing in on Illidan. I expect that 8-10 guilds will kill Illidan on my server before WotlK.
Is this a high number ? How is your server doing ?
I personaly think that this number is too high. Heck, we have guilds clear Hyjal who couldnt even beat Nefarian back in old WoW. And i am sure they'll get the better of Illidan aswell in the forseeable future.|||Hehe, my realm is so much further behind this.
It's a RP PvP though, which might go someway to explaining it. It's also been around since before tbc.
Anyway, Vashj has been downed by 4 guilds, but aparently Kael has only been downed by one. The guild that has down Kael has so far killed Rage in Hyjal, but no further.
My own guild is only as far as having killed Gruul, all of Kara and some of ZA.|||Proudmoore is.. well it's more up to date than it was with Naxx pre-BC what with 2 guilds clearing BT.
But we're a long ****in way from when we had a world first capable guild (for those who don't know, Ruined on Proudmoore had the world first Onyxia kill).|||My server is the social server of WoW. Everyone is content in their 10-15 man guilds.
Almost all good guilds shattered when BC came out.
One guild on alliance has made it to black temple.
Another is close. And I dont count them because they transfered here. lol.
The rest are breaking their SSC virginity.
All the guilds that were ahead in SSC have broken up. Massive drama, fighting, and mass exodus of server transfers of raiders who were here pre-bc and just sick of eachothers crap.
Then the people who x-fered away hang around the realm forum trolling it and ripping on who is left, and bask in old glory as their freinds kiss their butts for downing pre-bc content and having piss contests of who can down Ony with the least people.
Theres one group who has reformed and renamed their guild about 5 times now. Kill one boss, break up, reform under new leadership, same people. lol.|||hmm, seems my server is quite up front :)
now we need some world first kills ^^|||Lucky you. :p
I think my server is medium pop these days, but we still have 1 guild that's cleared everything, 1 halfway BT, 1 starting MH/BT (my guild) and one guild that was halfway in MH/BT before disbanding.
Add to that 10 or so guilds in SSC/TK, 2 of which killed Vashj and are on Kael now. I'd anticipate 2-3 more killing Vashj before too long hopefully. All in all horde side isn't nearly as active as alliance though unfortunately.|||YamahaGuy... you're not on Khadgar, are you?|||My server is small and quiet. This is a good thing, only one guild farm Illidan so far and a few others are in BT, so my guild (which has only existed for a few months) now gets to streak past the slackers, which is loads of fun. It's always fun to two-shot a boss which older guilds have been wiping on for a while :)
I like it a lot more than what I remember from being on a high-pop server just before naxx dropped, where some of the most horribly inept players spent 90% of their time standing about in IF in their t2, stroking their e-peen :)|||Quote:
YamahaGuy... you're not on Khadgar, are you?
No. But am I singing a familiar tune?
Heh heh.|||Well, I heard a few stories from a friend who fled her own server (Khadgar) and joined us on ours, and although I don't know too many details it did sound familiar, yes. :)
Is this a high number ? How is your server doing ?
I personaly think that this number is too high. Heck, we have guilds clear Hyjal who couldnt even beat Nefarian back in old WoW. And i am sure they'll get the better of Illidan aswell in the forseeable future.|||Hehe, my realm is so much further behind this.
It's a RP PvP though, which might go someway to explaining it. It's also been around since before tbc.
Anyway, Vashj has been downed by 4 guilds, but aparently Kael has only been downed by one. The guild that has down Kael has so far killed Rage in Hyjal, but no further.
My own guild is only as far as having killed Gruul, all of Kara and some of ZA.|||Proudmoore is.. well it's more up to date than it was with Naxx pre-BC what with 2 guilds clearing BT.
But we're a long ****in way from when we had a world first capable guild (for those who don't know, Ruined on Proudmoore had the world first Onyxia kill).|||My server is the social server of WoW. Everyone is content in their 10-15 man guilds.
Almost all good guilds shattered when BC came out.
One guild on alliance has made it to black temple.
Another is close. And I dont count them because they transfered here. lol.
The rest are breaking their SSC virginity.
All the guilds that were ahead in SSC have broken up. Massive drama, fighting, and mass exodus of server transfers of raiders who were here pre-bc and just sick of eachothers crap.
Then the people who x-fered away hang around the realm forum trolling it and ripping on who is left, and bask in old glory as their freinds kiss their butts for downing pre-bc content and having piss contests of who can down Ony with the least people.
Theres one group who has reformed and renamed their guild about 5 times now. Kill one boss, break up, reform under new leadership, same people. lol.|||hmm, seems my server is quite up front :)
now we need some world first kills ^^|||Lucky you. :p
I think my server is medium pop these days, but we still have 1 guild that's cleared everything, 1 halfway BT, 1 starting MH/BT (my guild) and one guild that was halfway in MH/BT before disbanding.
Add to that 10 or so guilds in SSC/TK, 2 of which killed Vashj and are on Kael now. I'd anticipate 2-3 more killing Vashj before too long hopefully. All in all horde side isn't nearly as active as alliance though unfortunately.|||YamahaGuy... you're not on Khadgar, are you?|||My server is small and quiet. This is a good thing, only one guild farm Illidan so far and a few others are in BT, so my guild (which has only existed for a few months) now gets to streak past the slackers, which is loads of fun. It's always fun to two-shot a boss which older guilds have been wiping on for a while :)
I like it a lot more than what I remember from being on a high-pop server just before naxx dropped, where some of the most horribly inept players spent 90% of their time standing about in IF in their t2, stroking their e-peen :)|||Quote:
YamahaGuy... you're not on Khadgar, are you?
No. But am I singing a familiar tune?
Heh heh.|||Well, I heard a few stories from a friend who fled her own server (Khadgar) and joined us on ours, and although I don't know too many details it did sound familiar, yes. :)
Zul'Aman
Expierences? Thoughts? Has anyone here downed it? I just want to now how this raid is. Discuss!|||Not tuned very well for its intended audience.
We are all 50% T6 and still think its quite challenging, its really really dependant on a well geared tank, weve taken along some kara equipped offspec tanks and they get one shotted quite a lot by some of the bosses.|||We're a Kara/heroic geared guild on the whole and have downed the four avatars. The only one that is giving us any real grief is Jan'alai, but that's more down to coordination of the fight than anything else.
We've heard from more progressed guilds on our server that there is a signficant jump in difficulty to the last 2 bosses. Going for our first try beyond the 4 avatars tonight.|||Just for another data point:
Guild in a mixture of kara and T5-level gear.
Bear and Eagle down on the first night.
Lynx on the second.
A week and a half later, we're still trying the dragonhawk......|||My guild got to the last boss first day, but the 9k shadow damage on the raid has been a headache. I guess we'll make some high end shadow resist gear, and go back to wreak horrible vengeance.|||My guild is fully T5 geared and we've pretty much laughed our way through ZA. All we have left is Zul'jin and probably will have him down this next reset. Thanksgiving screwed up our raid schedule pretty bad. We also only do ZA on off nights.
Oh and to moopy, we did that fight with most people having 0 shadow resist unbuffed. It's a dps race is all. Kill 2 adds Shackle the undead sheep the humanoid and kill the boss. A CoH priest can keep the group up pretty well. We didn't have one with us so it was a PoM on one group & a priest spamming PoH with concentration aura.|||we have BC cleared, only do the T6 instances and zul the rest of the week.
we cleared it between 14 and 18 PM when the servers got up again after patching.
No real problems detected.|||We down the first three avatars in short order, through the lynx boss (he's getting nerfed btw).
The dragon hawk boss is giving us trouble, we had him down to 60% on our last attempt. Just need to dodge the bombs a little better and kill the hawks more efficiently.
I'm the only one with any tier 5 (shoulders) the rest of the raid group is geared from kara/gruul/heroic badges so I think we are right in line for whom the instance was designed for.
It does seem odd that such a tough boss comes after a fairly easy 3rd boss.
It reminds me of the shade in kara, the curator was very easy for us but it took us a week or two to get the shade down the first couple of times.
Gear check? I think its a coordination check, lot of stuff going on in that dragon boss fight.|||Quote:
Not tuned very well for its intended audience.
We are all 50% T6 and still think its quite challenging, its really really dependant on a well geared tank, weve taken along some kara equipped offspec tanks and they get one shotted quite a lot by some of the bosses.
Actually, from what I saw in 2 years playing, it's probably right where they want it to be. As the hardcore T6-5-4 will try it, and in a few weeks, they'll nerf it to the extreme so that 1/2 Kara gear people can do it.
If it's too hard, just wait a few weeks/months for the nerf bat, then it should be fine ;)
That's what happens with every instances... They can't make it too easy for the hardcore geared players, cause they'll have to get another instance out soon if people already get bored with it...
MoRRoW|||nerf:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patch...atchnotes.html
The melee haste provided by Halazzi's Frenzy has been reduced to 100%.
We are all 50% T6 and still think its quite challenging, its really really dependant on a well geared tank, weve taken along some kara equipped offspec tanks and they get one shotted quite a lot by some of the bosses.|||We're a Kara/heroic geared guild on the whole and have downed the four avatars. The only one that is giving us any real grief is Jan'alai, but that's more down to coordination of the fight than anything else.
We've heard from more progressed guilds on our server that there is a signficant jump in difficulty to the last 2 bosses. Going for our first try beyond the 4 avatars tonight.|||Just for another data point:
Guild in a mixture of kara and T5-level gear.
Bear and Eagle down on the first night.
Lynx on the second.
A week and a half later, we're still trying the dragonhawk......|||My guild got to the last boss first day, but the 9k shadow damage on the raid has been a headache. I guess we'll make some high end shadow resist gear, and go back to wreak horrible vengeance.|||My guild is fully T5 geared and we've pretty much laughed our way through ZA. All we have left is Zul'jin and probably will have him down this next reset. Thanksgiving screwed up our raid schedule pretty bad. We also only do ZA on off nights.
Oh and to moopy, we did that fight with most people having 0 shadow resist unbuffed. It's a dps race is all. Kill 2 adds Shackle the undead sheep the humanoid and kill the boss. A CoH priest can keep the group up pretty well. We didn't have one with us so it was a PoM on one group & a priest spamming PoH with concentration aura.|||we have BC cleared, only do the T6 instances and zul the rest of the week.
we cleared it between 14 and 18 PM when the servers got up again after patching.
No real problems detected.|||We down the first three avatars in short order, through the lynx boss (he's getting nerfed btw).
The dragon hawk boss is giving us trouble, we had him down to 60% on our last attempt. Just need to dodge the bombs a little better and kill the hawks more efficiently.
I'm the only one with any tier 5 (shoulders) the rest of the raid group is geared from kara/gruul/heroic badges so I think we are right in line for whom the instance was designed for.
It does seem odd that such a tough boss comes after a fairly easy 3rd boss.
It reminds me of the shade in kara, the curator was very easy for us but it took us a week or two to get the shade down the first couple of times.
Gear check? I think its a coordination check, lot of stuff going on in that dragon boss fight.|||Quote:
Not tuned very well for its intended audience.
We are all 50% T6 and still think its quite challenging, its really really dependant on a well geared tank, weve taken along some kara equipped offspec tanks and they get one shotted quite a lot by some of the bosses.
Actually, from what I saw in 2 years playing, it's probably right where they want it to be. As the hardcore T6-5-4 will try it, and in a few weeks, they'll nerf it to the extreme so that 1/2 Kara gear people can do it.
If it's too hard, just wait a few weeks/months for the nerf bat, then it should be fine ;)
That's what happens with every instances... They can't make it too easy for the hardcore geared players, cause they'll have to get another instance out soon if people already get bored with it...
MoRRoW|||nerf:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patch...atchnotes.html
The melee haste provided by Halazzi's Frenzy has been reduced to 100%.
Pre-BC Raiding
Just wondering: Are there any guilds out there that actualy still do pre-BC raids?
-from WoW's official wandering idiot|||One guild that I'm in occasionally does Naxx or BWL, when all 25-man bosses scheduled for the week die earlier than expected. Another does ZG whenever they can (the GL is obsessed with getting her hands on Zulian Tiger).|||Im in a 70 raid guild but when we're a bit bored we would do ZG..really fun :)|||Quote:
Im in a 70 raid guild but when we're a bit bored we would do ZG..really fun :)
same here, except that we do naxx.
actualy, with naxx returning in WotlK, it may be a good idea to practice the tactics a little for those who didnt have the chance in vanilla WoW.|||My server features PUGs to old school raid instances in the weekends. Only on horde side I think, but still...|||We did 5-man AQ20 the other day. Not that it was challenging, really. Was a bit funny that Ossi can be tanked in supreme mode.|||Quote:
actualy, with naxx returning in WotlK, it may be a good idea to practice the tactics a little for those who didnt have the chance in vanilla WoW.
Meh, they'll change the fights, mark my words :)|||I would be half way interested in doing the old 60 raids with 40x lv60s as was intended. Would be interesting to see how bc has changed the old raids.|||those lvl 60's would have to be pretty twinked out ^^ naxx still has the old difficulty, so t2+ gear is still a good idea :)|||Quote:
those lvl 60's would have to be pretty twinked out ^^ naxx still has the old difficulty, so t2+ gear is still a good idea :)
That is what I meant. 2.0 Style raiding :)
That said, I'd rather rollback to 1.9 or something..
-from WoW's official wandering idiot|||One guild that I'm in occasionally does Naxx or BWL, when all 25-man bosses scheduled for the week die earlier than expected. Another does ZG whenever they can (the GL is obsessed with getting her hands on Zulian Tiger).|||Im in a 70 raid guild but when we're a bit bored we would do ZG..really fun :)|||Quote:
Im in a 70 raid guild but when we're a bit bored we would do ZG..really fun :)
same here, except that we do naxx.
actualy, with naxx returning in WotlK, it may be a good idea to practice the tactics a little for those who didnt have the chance in vanilla WoW.|||My server features PUGs to old school raid instances in the weekends. Only on horde side I think, but still...|||We did 5-man AQ20 the other day. Not that it was challenging, really. Was a bit funny that Ossi can be tanked in supreme mode.|||Quote:
actualy, with naxx returning in WotlK, it may be a good idea to practice the tactics a little for those who didnt have the chance in vanilla WoW.
Meh, they'll change the fights, mark my words :)|||I would be half way interested in doing the old 60 raids with 40x lv60s as was intended. Would be interesting to see how bc has changed the old raids.|||those lvl 60's would have to be pretty twinked out ^^ naxx still has the old difficulty, so t2+ gear is still a good idea :)|||Quote:
those lvl 60's would have to be pretty twinked out ^^ naxx still has the old difficulty, so t2+ gear is still a good idea :)
That is what I meant. 2.0 Style raiding :)
That said, I'd rather rollback to 1.9 or something..
when are we vasjh/kael ready ?
Hi,
My guild is Gardiens du lys on Zul'jin. We just killed A'lar this week (about 8-9th try). Only Solarian(should be easy) is left before the 2 big bosses.
I'd like advice on how we should be geared before we attempt Vasjh and Kael. I think we could attempt it now, but some people in my guild disagree and think we should farm and gear ourselves more in T5 before.
Most of us are already geared full epic with a mix of T4/T5/equivalents.
What did you do when you first started on those bosses, farmed a lot before ?|||grrr alliance...had a couple of your guys try to gank me in nagrand the other day.
id say try it, see how it goes! if anything you fail, and the guild bank takes a 100g repair hit...but wow is all about the experience so give it a shot!|||If you have to ask, you're not ready
I'd say, get Solarian and Al'ar down solidly.
They're both far easier. Solarian especially is a joke.
Then, once you've cleared SSC consistently and have time to spare, get started on Vashj.
It's essentially pointless to go in with only 45 minutes of raid time remaining - you won't come even close to seeing what the fight is like in 2 attempts.|||go there ASAP.
these fights are very much about coordination. practice will replace gear. Start now.|||Quote:
go there ASAP.
these fights are very much about coordination. practice will replace gear. Start now.
Can't say I agree. You definitely want a full night on Vashj (or at most one boss remaining) because it will take people a few attempts before they even know what the hell is going on in phase 2.
Going in at the end of the night is just not going to do anything other than being able to go "Oh ! Cool ! The bridge animation rocks ! And then we got our collective arses kicked".|||The OP or twoflower didn't say anything about only having time to try the bosses at the end of clearing nights. You still have a point though Aerath, and I agree with you and twoflower. Go there the first chance you can schedule a full raid day for either boss. You'll notice if you need more gear, like hp for tank on Kael, aoe dps, whatever.|||You will have to chose what to focus on in the end. Vanilla wow was easy in this matter as getting better meant you had more time left over to try the next boss, but here we're really talking about 2 instances at the same level. We ended up skipping TK to focus on Vasjh in the end. With our schedule clearing Solarian, VR and Alar took a lot of time from Vashj attempts.
Solarian is a jokeboss really. Clearing the trash is more annoying and timeconsuming than the actual encounter. Getting Vasjh on farm is a lot more rewarding and as Twoflower said, it's about coordination. All the gear in the world won't help you if people don't get their stuff right. Clearing up to Vasjh and then doing TK if you have a subpar raid next time could be an idea I guess.|||Quote:
The OP or twoflower didn't say anything about only having time to try the bosses at the end of clearing nights. You still have a point though Aerath, and I agree with you and twoflower. Go there the first chance you can schedule a full raid day for either boss. You'll notice if you need more gear, like hp for tank on Kael, aoe dps, whatever.
Entirely true - he didn't say anything about it. But I hazard the guess that if it took 'em 8 tries to get Al'ar down they most likely need a fair bit of time in SSC still to clear the bosses before Vashj. Whilst I don't want to detract from a first-kill, it means that they only just 'finished' the rest of SSC and then went TK.|||yeah, of course i dont mean that you should scedule 30 minutes sessions. But pick one of the 2 final bosses, and concentrate on him/her. I'd suggest Vash, to be honest. As soon as you have cleared the reat of the instance, go for her. Dont waste your time on TK, T5 shoulders are not important. Important is that you get some quality time with Lady Vash :)
of course you will take less and less time to get to her, so you will get more practice time every week. Dont even go to TK till you have her down.|||Quote:
Entirely true - he didn't say anything about it. But I hazard the guess that if it took 'em 8 tries to get Al'ar down they most likely need a fair bit of time in SSC still to clear the bosses before Vashj. Whilst I don't want to detract from a first-kill, it means that they only just 'finished' the rest of SSC and then went TK.
Sounds about right now that you mention it.
Focus on SSC. Vashj will probably take 2-4 weeks to learn depending on how much you raid, i.e you have to clear SSC 2-4 times anyway while learning, which is more than enough farming.
My guild is Gardiens du lys on Zul'jin. We just killed A'lar this week (about 8-9th try). Only Solarian(should be easy) is left before the 2 big bosses.
I'd like advice on how we should be geared before we attempt Vasjh and Kael. I think we could attempt it now, but some people in my guild disagree and think we should farm and gear ourselves more in T5 before.
Most of us are already geared full epic with a mix of T4/T5/equivalents.
What did you do when you first started on those bosses, farmed a lot before ?|||grrr alliance...had a couple of your guys try to gank me in nagrand the other day.
id say try it, see how it goes! if anything you fail, and the guild bank takes a 100g repair hit...but wow is all about the experience so give it a shot!|||If you have to ask, you're not ready
I'd say, get Solarian and Al'ar down solidly.
They're both far easier. Solarian especially is a joke.
Then, once you've cleared SSC consistently and have time to spare, get started on Vashj.
It's essentially pointless to go in with only 45 minutes of raid time remaining - you won't come even close to seeing what the fight is like in 2 attempts.|||go there ASAP.
these fights are very much about coordination. practice will replace gear. Start now.|||Quote:
go there ASAP.
these fights are very much about coordination. practice will replace gear. Start now.
Can't say I agree. You definitely want a full night on Vashj (or at most one boss remaining) because it will take people a few attempts before they even know what the hell is going on in phase 2.
Going in at the end of the night is just not going to do anything other than being able to go "Oh ! Cool ! The bridge animation rocks ! And then we got our collective arses kicked".|||The OP or twoflower didn't say anything about only having time to try the bosses at the end of clearing nights. You still have a point though Aerath, and I agree with you and twoflower. Go there the first chance you can schedule a full raid day for either boss. You'll notice if you need more gear, like hp for tank on Kael, aoe dps, whatever.|||You will have to chose what to focus on in the end. Vanilla wow was easy in this matter as getting better meant you had more time left over to try the next boss, but here we're really talking about 2 instances at the same level. We ended up skipping TK to focus on Vasjh in the end. With our schedule clearing Solarian, VR and Alar took a lot of time from Vashj attempts.
Solarian is a jokeboss really. Clearing the trash is more annoying and timeconsuming than the actual encounter. Getting Vasjh on farm is a lot more rewarding and as Twoflower said, it's about coordination. All the gear in the world won't help you if people don't get their stuff right. Clearing up to Vasjh and then doing TK if you have a subpar raid next time could be an idea I guess.|||Quote:
The OP or twoflower didn't say anything about only having time to try the bosses at the end of clearing nights. You still have a point though Aerath, and I agree with you and twoflower. Go there the first chance you can schedule a full raid day for either boss. You'll notice if you need more gear, like hp for tank on Kael, aoe dps, whatever.
Entirely true - he didn't say anything about it. But I hazard the guess that if it took 'em 8 tries to get Al'ar down they most likely need a fair bit of time in SSC still to clear the bosses before Vashj. Whilst I don't want to detract from a first-kill, it means that they only just 'finished' the rest of SSC and then went TK.|||yeah, of course i dont mean that you should scedule 30 minutes sessions. But pick one of the 2 final bosses, and concentrate on him/her. I'd suggest Vash, to be honest. As soon as you have cleared the reat of the instance, go for her. Dont waste your time on TK, T5 shoulders are not important. Important is that you get some quality time with Lady Vash :)
of course you will take less and less time to get to her, so you will get more practice time every week. Dont even go to TK till you have her down.|||Quote:
Entirely true - he didn't say anything about it. But I hazard the guess that if it took 'em 8 tries to get Al'ar down they most likely need a fair bit of time in SSC still to clear the bosses before Vashj. Whilst I don't want to detract from a first-kill, it means that they only just 'finished' the rest of SSC and then went TK.
Sounds about right now that you mention it.
Focus on SSC. Vashj will probably take 2-4 weeks to learn depending on how much you raid, i.e you have to clear SSC 2-4 times anyway while learning, which is more than enough farming.
Raid Times: Starting and Finishing
Well, I've finally got into a guild that is serious about raiding, hallelujah. I thought I played a fair amount as well (every day from 8pm-midnight/1am).
But I'm worried this isn't enough. Am I doomed never to see the final dungeons?
Because I'm in the UK and my server (Agamaggan) is one hour ahead, I can never get on earlier than 8:30pm server time (I'm a married man with a young child who I have to put to bed every other night). My guild now wants to start raids at 8:00pm so I'll struggle to get invites.
Could some of you post your 'normal' raiding time, especially those of you doing 25-mans? I really need to know if this is usual or if there is a mix of early and 'late' raiders amongst the WoW community.|||we raid from 6 Pm to midnight. i think your group starts rather late.|||My guild raids from 19.00 til about 22-22.30 (UK time).|||to the op:
I am in the same situation as you are, my wife and I play and we log on when our son goes to sleep.
We log on no earlier than 9 pm, raid until 1 am.
Raids start at 10pm.
Are you doomed to never see the final dungeons? Thats hard to say, from the last reports I heard only 60%~ish percent of players had downed ANY 25 man content.
Only 33% of players had downed any content in ssc/tk.
Black temple was at 5%.
10,000,000 players and only 500,000 have even been inside the black temple, the amount to have downed illidan is a lot less.
Odds are you won't see the black temple, and this isn't new. When TBC came along 20% of wow players had never seen the boss of MC which was the first 40 man raid instance in classic wow.|||Current guild:
Week days - 9:30 pm to whenever it is cleared (3 to 4 hours).
Weekends - 4:30pm and 7:30 pm to whenever it is cleared.
Ex-guild:
10:30 pm to 2:00 am (3 or 4 days a week).
It is a very casual guild so it might actually start at 11:00 pm (waiting for ppl). It took days to clear Kara.|||i dont know how i think about these numbers you present there, rgi...
on one hand, of course blizzard wants evceryone to experience their instances. On the othr hand, i think that 80% of the people actualy have been to MC before BC came out is quite a huge number. i think that the other 20% realy werent interested in raiding.
the same with 33% dowing T5 contend, i think the number is quite high, considering that you still ( even after all the nerfes and prequest killing ) need a decent level of dedication and organisation to kill something in there.
Not to mention the lore. I still think it is ok from a ingame logic point of view that not even 10% of the players see Illidan himself. I mean he is the evil overlord of the entire outlands.
This balance will never be perfect, i fear. But blizz certainly indicated that they lean towards letting more "casual" players experience the raids. Something i dont realy agree with, but hey, it is their game.
Zachariah : If you are "doomed to never see the final dungeons" or not depends completely on your guild and the people you play with. What is their attitude towards ou ? If you explain your situations to the other people of your class, do you think they will understand it and try to make room for you as often as you are online ? If not, maybe another guild would be better for you. Maybe even a different timezone, which would put your raiding times closer to "normal" raiding time their time zone ?|||We raid from 20.30 till 23.30, so only 3 hours. 3 nights a week. We've done 5/6 SSC and 3/4 TK.
I think the other guilds at our server who have similar progress raid a lot more.|||honestly, go to wowwiki and look at the guild progressions, and then look at the guilds making those progressions, and the times they raid.
8pm is late for a start, and midnight is about right to end.
Pre-BC, we would raid beginning around 5pm, and raid for more than five hours in a row...sure, we got full clears of BWL, and most of Naxx....But it took long hours.
I now almost never raid, but that is because my palli has all of the kara gear, and I don't want to play five hours each night.|||Quote:
Are you doomed to never see the final dungeons? Thats hard to say, from the last reports I heard only 60%~ish percent of players had downed ANY 25 man content.
Only 33% of players had downed any content in ssc/tk.
Black temple was at 5%.
10,000,000 players and only 500,000 have even been inside the black temple, the amount to have downed illidan is a lot less.
Odds are you won't see the black temple, and this isn't new. When TBC came along 20% of wow players had never seen the boss of MC which was the first 40 man raid instance in classic wow.
I think these figures are actually vastly overstated, certainly the one about MC is. I'm fairly sure that it was actually 20% (roughly) of players had seen the last boss of MC. This was something that Jeff Kaplan stated in an interview before TBC was released.
By the way, had an impromptu Grull run last night with some guildies and friends. Started at 00.20 (server time)!|||We raid from 8-12 CET three times a week (+ some 10-mans). For the people living in UK that's 7-11 pm. We used to start the raids earlier on one of the nights (sunday) but it just made it more unfocused raids imo.
But I'm worried this isn't enough. Am I doomed never to see the final dungeons?
Because I'm in the UK and my server (Agamaggan) is one hour ahead, I can never get on earlier than 8:30pm server time (I'm a married man with a young child who I have to put to bed every other night). My guild now wants to start raids at 8:00pm so I'll struggle to get invites.
Could some of you post your 'normal' raiding time, especially those of you doing 25-mans? I really need to know if this is usual or if there is a mix of early and 'late' raiders amongst the WoW community.|||we raid from 6 Pm to midnight. i think your group starts rather late.|||My guild raids from 19.00 til about 22-22.30 (UK time).|||to the op:
I am in the same situation as you are, my wife and I play and we log on when our son goes to sleep.
We log on no earlier than 9 pm, raid until 1 am.
Raids start at 10pm.
Are you doomed to never see the final dungeons? Thats hard to say, from the last reports I heard only 60%~ish percent of players had downed ANY 25 man content.
Only 33% of players had downed any content in ssc/tk.
Black temple was at 5%.
10,000,000 players and only 500,000 have even been inside the black temple, the amount to have downed illidan is a lot less.
Odds are you won't see the black temple, and this isn't new. When TBC came along 20% of wow players had never seen the boss of MC which was the first 40 man raid instance in classic wow.|||Current guild:
Week days - 9:30 pm to whenever it is cleared (3 to 4 hours).
Weekends - 4:30pm and 7:30 pm to whenever it is cleared.
Ex-guild:
10:30 pm to 2:00 am (3 or 4 days a week).
It is a very casual guild so it might actually start at 11:00 pm (waiting for ppl). It took days to clear Kara.|||i dont know how i think about these numbers you present there, rgi...
on one hand, of course blizzard wants evceryone to experience their instances. On the othr hand, i think that 80% of the people actualy have been to MC before BC came out is quite a huge number. i think that the other 20% realy werent interested in raiding.
the same with 33% dowing T5 contend, i think the number is quite high, considering that you still ( even after all the nerfes and prequest killing ) need a decent level of dedication and organisation to kill something in there.
Not to mention the lore. I still think it is ok from a ingame logic point of view that not even 10% of the players see Illidan himself. I mean he is the evil overlord of the entire outlands.
This balance will never be perfect, i fear. But blizz certainly indicated that they lean towards letting more "casual" players experience the raids. Something i dont realy agree with, but hey, it is their game.
Zachariah : If you are "doomed to never see the final dungeons" or not depends completely on your guild and the people you play with. What is their attitude towards ou ? If you explain your situations to the other people of your class, do you think they will understand it and try to make room for you as often as you are online ? If not, maybe another guild would be better for you. Maybe even a different timezone, which would put your raiding times closer to "normal" raiding time their time zone ?|||We raid from 20.30 till 23.30, so only 3 hours. 3 nights a week. We've done 5/6 SSC and 3/4 TK.
I think the other guilds at our server who have similar progress raid a lot more.|||honestly, go to wowwiki and look at the guild progressions, and then look at the guilds making those progressions, and the times they raid.
8pm is late for a start, and midnight is about right to end.
Pre-BC, we would raid beginning around 5pm, and raid for more than five hours in a row...sure, we got full clears of BWL, and most of Naxx....But it took long hours.
I now almost never raid, but that is because my palli has all of the kara gear, and I don't want to play five hours each night.|||Quote:
Are you doomed to never see the final dungeons? Thats hard to say, from the last reports I heard only 60%~ish percent of players had downed ANY 25 man content.
Only 33% of players had downed any content in ssc/tk.
Black temple was at 5%.
10,000,000 players and only 500,000 have even been inside the black temple, the amount to have downed illidan is a lot less.
Odds are you won't see the black temple, and this isn't new. When TBC came along 20% of wow players had never seen the boss of MC which was the first 40 man raid instance in classic wow.
I think these figures are actually vastly overstated, certainly the one about MC is. I'm fairly sure that it was actually 20% (roughly) of players had seen the last boss of MC. This was something that Jeff Kaplan stated in an interview before TBC was released.
By the way, had an impromptu Grull run last night with some guildies and friends. Started at 00.20 (server time)!|||We raid from 8-12 CET three times a week (+ some 10-mans). For the people living in UK that's 7-11 pm. We used to start the raids earlier on one of the nights (sunday) but it just made it more unfocused raids imo.
Heroics - Order of Difficulty
Can someone list the Heroics in order of difficulty? From what I've seen, Mechanar looks like the easiest, but what's next once you've had all the loot from there
Or are they all meant to be the same?|||It depends a bit on your group composition, but I recomend Underbog, that's a fairly easy instance if you've got a decent tank.|||with two warlocks HERO mech can be fully cleared in less than an hour. The hardest of all the HERO's that I have ran are durnholde and black morass.|||i think bot is the easiest heroic then slave pens. mech is easy but that 2nd main boss can be a pain if the group dont have any fire res gear. slave pens is also very easy. i would say underbog needs a slightly better group than slave pens or bot|||Quote:
i think bot is the easiest heroic then slave pens. mech is easy but that 2nd main boss can be a pain if the group dont know how to kite. slave pens is also very easy. i would say underbog needs a slightly better group than slave pens or bot
corrected.
seriously, i have never ever seen anyone use fire resis gear in that fight.|||Quote:
corrected.
seriously, i have never ever seen anyone use fire resis gear in that fight.
Har har, I don't think I've seen someone use res gear in any heroic. Granted, there was some whimpering in slave pens when the npc accidentally died during some confusion, but the boss went down fine anyway.
Back to Mechanar: First kill the last boss, then move the party back to the little tunnel that leads to the bridge. Have everyone stand on the bridge, and send the kiter/puller into the boss's room. Have the kiter pull the boss and run like mad out onto the bridge. Now the tank snatches the boss from the puller before she runs into the bridge (and resets), while the puller runs into the room of the last boss. The fire adds will follow the puller. Just wait there until they are there, and then run back and help finish the boss.
Just kiting the boss isn't an option anymore since she resets when she enters the bridge between the two bosses.|||that method of pulling the boss dont work any more after she trys to reset shes immune to hits.
and i was just saying that if youve got some res gear on its a lot easier. kiting the boss is one thing and easy enough but the fire eles will catch you at some point and with that slowed effect on you it makes life a bit harder. dressed in some fire res gear just spank and tank. same again on last boss in slave pens i put some epic nature res gear on and with the buf and hunters buf i can pretty much resist all the nature damage from the boss and it makes the healers job that much easier. ive done it with out b4 but if you can make a fight easy then go for it and make it easy.
also on a side note if you dont need any res gear why do aldor and scryer both have thew res gear patterns from the qm's|||Quote:
with two warlocks HERO mech can be fully cleared in less than an hour. The hardest of all the HERO's that I have ran are durnholde and black morass.
Ah, Old Hilsbrad can be rendered realitvely trivial- get a rogue to stealth the first part with the bombs, and avoid all that nasty pain with patrols can be avoided. You can then get right on with busting Thrall out.
Random wibbling about difficulty- personal feeling only, and not a full list as my memory isn't always great:
Underbog and Slave Pens are easy as really easy pie. These's a reason why people are always running these. Steamvaults heroic is really easy other than the lightning clouds on the first boss. Ramparts is easy when you know how. Botanica is fairly simple, other than the hellfiring Satyr boss (who is doable with a good group). On the next tier of difficulty, I'd personally place Blood furnace (not all that hard, apart from the zerg before the second boss, and the double FG pulls near the end, which can be tough with a sub-par tank or healer).
I'd then list mechanar, and mana tombs (last boss in mana tombs is basically a DPS fight, and if your DPS is slacking, it's annoying). Shattered halls comes in about here, can be hellish hard with cocky players, or much easier with a discliplined group. Arcatraz really gives you a good working over. Black Morass.. well, it's a bit too much- as it needs a pretty amazingly geared group and the rewards are sucky.
I know, I left many out, those are just what springs to mind :)|||Easiest to hardest, this list assumes you do everything, have appropriate gear (good luck killing Pandemonius in Mana Tombs Heroic with no Shadow Resist heh) and group composition, this is not entirely taken from my experience, but there was a similar discussion in my guild a few weeks ago and it came to a list a bit like this one:
Mechenar
Slave Pens
Mana Tombs
Underbog
Blood Furnace
Sethekk Halls
Ramparts
Shattered Halls
Steamvault
Botanica
Shadow Labyrinth
CoT: Durnholde
CoT: Black Morass
The Arcatraz
Note: Auchenai Crypts not listed as none of us had attempted it yet.|||Quote:
Easiest to hardest, this list assumes you do everything, have appropriate gear (good luck killing Pandemonius in Mana Tombs Heroic with no Shadow Resist heh)
That really isn't hard. A tank with a decent amount of HP doesn't need shadow resist at all for this fight, if the healer isn't AFK/asleep/dead for tax reasons. Just keep them topped off like you would during phase 2 on the Prince, and it's all over really quickly. Killed him twice in heroic this week, and on each occasion the tank wasn't using any shadow resist at all, just relying on heals- different tank each time. Of course, shammies can drop grounding totem over and again to eat the bolt volley somewhat too, which means you have more GCD to spare for the tank.
I have to admit to slacking a bit, actually, the tank actually died on this boss the first time- on the most recent attempt, anyway. I was busy trying to drink tea and skip the CD on a track mid-fight. However, that's the first time I've lost a tank there in ages. A non-sucky healer (i.e. one who isn't messing with a remote control when he should be healing) will handle this no problem, no shadow resist needed.
Or are they all meant to be the same?|||It depends a bit on your group composition, but I recomend Underbog, that's a fairly easy instance if you've got a decent tank.|||with two warlocks HERO mech can be fully cleared in less than an hour. The hardest of all the HERO's that I have ran are durnholde and black morass.|||i think bot is the easiest heroic then slave pens. mech is easy but that 2nd main boss can be a pain if the group dont have any fire res gear. slave pens is also very easy. i would say underbog needs a slightly better group than slave pens or bot|||Quote:
i think bot is the easiest heroic then slave pens. mech is easy but that 2nd main boss can be a pain if the group dont know how to kite. slave pens is also very easy. i would say underbog needs a slightly better group than slave pens or bot
corrected.
seriously, i have never ever seen anyone use fire resis gear in that fight.|||Quote:
corrected.
seriously, i have never ever seen anyone use fire resis gear in that fight.
Har har, I don't think I've seen someone use res gear in any heroic. Granted, there was some whimpering in slave pens when the npc accidentally died during some confusion, but the boss went down fine anyway.
Back to Mechanar: First kill the last boss, then move the party back to the little tunnel that leads to the bridge. Have everyone stand on the bridge, and send the kiter/puller into the boss's room. Have the kiter pull the boss and run like mad out onto the bridge. Now the tank snatches the boss from the puller before she runs into the bridge (and resets), while the puller runs into the room of the last boss. The fire adds will follow the puller. Just wait there until they are there, and then run back and help finish the boss.
Just kiting the boss isn't an option anymore since she resets when she enters the bridge between the two bosses.|||that method of pulling the boss dont work any more after she trys to reset shes immune to hits.
and i was just saying that if youve got some res gear on its a lot easier. kiting the boss is one thing and easy enough but the fire eles will catch you at some point and with that slowed effect on you it makes life a bit harder. dressed in some fire res gear just spank and tank. same again on last boss in slave pens i put some epic nature res gear on and with the buf and hunters buf i can pretty much resist all the nature damage from the boss and it makes the healers job that much easier. ive done it with out b4 but if you can make a fight easy then go for it and make it easy.
also on a side note if you dont need any res gear why do aldor and scryer both have thew res gear patterns from the qm's|||Quote:
with two warlocks HERO mech can be fully cleared in less than an hour. The hardest of all the HERO's that I have ran are durnholde and black morass.
Ah, Old Hilsbrad can be rendered realitvely trivial- get a rogue to stealth the first part with the bombs, and avoid all that nasty pain with patrols can be avoided. You can then get right on with busting Thrall out.
Random wibbling about difficulty- personal feeling only, and not a full list as my memory isn't always great:
Underbog and Slave Pens are easy as really easy pie. These's a reason why people are always running these. Steamvaults heroic is really easy other than the lightning clouds on the first boss. Ramparts is easy when you know how. Botanica is fairly simple, other than the hellfiring Satyr boss (who is doable with a good group). On the next tier of difficulty, I'd personally place Blood furnace (not all that hard, apart from the zerg before the second boss, and the double FG pulls near the end, which can be tough with a sub-par tank or healer).
I'd then list mechanar, and mana tombs (last boss in mana tombs is basically a DPS fight, and if your DPS is slacking, it's annoying). Shattered halls comes in about here, can be hellish hard with cocky players, or much easier with a discliplined group. Arcatraz really gives you a good working over. Black Morass.. well, it's a bit too much- as it needs a pretty amazingly geared group and the rewards are sucky.
I know, I left many out, those are just what springs to mind :)|||Easiest to hardest, this list assumes you do everything, have appropriate gear (good luck killing Pandemonius in Mana Tombs Heroic with no Shadow Resist heh) and group composition, this is not entirely taken from my experience, but there was a similar discussion in my guild a few weeks ago and it came to a list a bit like this one:
Mechenar
Slave Pens
Mana Tombs
Underbog
Blood Furnace
Sethekk Halls
Ramparts
Shattered Halls
Steamvault
Botanica
Shadow Labyrinth
CoT: Durnholde
CoT: Black Morass
The Arcatraz
Note: Auchenai Crypts not listed as none of us had attempted it yet.|||Quote:
Easiest to hardest, this list assumes you do everything, have appropriate gear (good luck killing Pandemonius in Mana Tombs Heroic with no Shadow Resist heh)
That really isn't hard. A tank with a decent amount of HP doesn't need shadow resist at all for this fight, if the healer isn't AFK/asleep/dead for tax reasons. Just keep them topped off like you would during phase 2 on the Prince, and it's all over really quickly. Killed him twice in heroic this week, and on each occasion the tank wasn't using any shadow resist at all, just relying on heals- different tank each time. Of course, shammies can drop grounding totem over and again to eat the bolt volley somewhat too, which means you have more GCD to spare for the tank.
I have to admit to slacking a bit, actually, the tank actually died on this boss the first time- on the most recent attempt, anyway. I was busy trying to drink tea and skip the CD on a track mid-fight. However, that's the first time I've lost a tank there in ages. A non-sucky healer (i.e. one who isn't messing with a remote control when he should be healing) will handle this no problem, no shadow resist needed.
If you need, if you want...
|||confused to how this relates...but i like the picture its cute...
as far as needing and wanting, picked up my d1 headpiece on my 62 priest...why? to complete my set of course, that and i love scholo to bits...
is my gear i currently have better? you better believe it.
next step? benediction.|||Quote:
confused to how this relates...but i like the picture its cute...
as far as needing and wanting, picked up my d1 headpiece on my 62 priest...why? to complete my set of course, that and i love scholo to bits...
is my gear i currently have better? you better believe it.
next step? benediction.
Gold spammer from yesterday who was banned. I replied with that picture. Now I look silly ;)||||||That first picture lines out nicely with the add :/
Pretty cool both btw
as far as needing and wanting, picked up my d1 headpiece on my 62 priest...why? to complete my set of course, that and i love scholo to bits...
is my gear i currently have better? you better believe it.
next step? benediction.|||Quote:
confused to how this relates...but i like the picture its cute...
as far as needing and wanting, picked up my d1 headpiece on my 62 priest...why? to complete my set of course, that and i love scholo to bits...
is my gear i currently have better? you better believe it.
next step? benediction.
Gold spammer from yesterday who was banned. I replied with that picture. Now I look silly ;)||||||That first picture lines out nicely with the add :/
Pretty cool both btw
Soloing SM
Hey guys, today i ran Dm for some greens and blues to disenchant and make some money, and then i thought of SM, now myself being a lvl 46 hunter it seemed really stupid even thinking about trying to solo SM, but i guess i can ask here, whats the lowest lvl for someone to solo SM. I mean any sm, let it be library, armory or the other 2. Some dude said lvl 36 for library but i guess he didnt get my question and thought i asked what the lowest lvl to do it in group Thx|||A budy and I duoed almost all of the wings in SM around 46 ish (iirc) we're both hunters (we died a lot in the Cath though). You should at least be able to run the lower level wings like the GY.
Also, don't forget about some of the other nice ones for some lowbie gear and drops like - Wailing, Shadowfang, and Blackfathom, I'd leave Gnomer alone as the mobs can get extreme with how many there are.|||Yeah you should be able to manage GY, possibly Library. I know Cath at 55ish was a doddle for a warrior, so a Hunter should be fine at about 50 I reckon|||sweet going to try GY later then :D thanks for help.|||On a related note, how well would a 47 Rogue and a 47 Arcane Mage do in the Library? The bf got a Mage quest for that area, but we can't find people who we could group with. If we can do it alone, then it'd be awesome. :)|||Quote:
sweet going to try GY later then :D thanks for help.
BTW - there are several rare spawns (silver dragon) that show up on occasion in the GY so be sure to look for them.
Fallen Champion
Azshir the Sleepless
and
Ironspine|||uhm ok i soloed SM GY today without any problems, but i got to say OMG it sucks, i made a total of 2 greens and 1 blue, which made me 5g and it took me 45min to run the whole thing..... now i can do dm in 30mins normal pace and it makes me a total of around 15g..... seriously GT sucks :D|||Quote:
On a related note, how well would a 47 Rogue and a 47 Arcane Mage do in the Library? The bf got a Mage quest for that area, but we can't find people who we could group with. If we can do it alone, then it'd be awesome. :)
No dice imo. Place is a bit too clustered for that, lot of casters and those monks like to kick, meaning no spellcasting.
Having said that, bit surprising that you can't get a group for that place. Considering Houndmaster Loksey is in that area as well, and he's a mandatory kill for a quest, together with Herod, Morgraine and Whitemane.
Plus, Lib leads to the key that you need to open the armory and the cathedral. Considering your levels, you might be better off asking for a Cath run and then asking the group nicely if they'll also do the Lib because of some open standing quests.
Oh, and if you're going in there. Make sure that you've been to the Needles, there's a quest there called, Test of Lore, which will eventually lead you to the Lib as well. Might as well, do them all in one fell swoop. Provided, you're Hordies of course.Oh and lest I forget, if non-Forsaken, then there's another book quest for SM Lib in TB.|||Quote:
On a related note, how well would a 47 Rogue and a 47 Arcane Mage do in the Library? The bf got a Mage quest for that area, but we can't find people who we could group with. If we can do it alone, then it'd be awesome. :)
47 mage and 47 rogue should easily clear library IMO. 2x CC, stunlock, kiting. Highest mob in ther3 is lvl 37 or 38.
on the other hand, i guess the quests and the mobs you kill will allready be grey to you, so why bother ? better try to find a maraudon group.|||hunter should be able to solo everything BUT houndmaster in library at around 48 or so..those dogs cause a little too much hell.
Also, don't forget about some of the other nice ones for some lowbie gear and drops like - Wailing, Shadowfang, and Blackfathom, I'd leave Gnomer alone as the mobs can get extreme with how many there are.|||Yeah you should be able to manage GY, possibly Library. I know Cath at 55ish was a doddle for a warrior, so a Hunter should be fine at about 50 I reckon|||sweet going to try GY later then :D thanks for help.|||On a related note, how well would a 47 Rogue and a 47 Arcane Mage do in the Library? The bf got a Mage quest for that area, but we can't find people who we could group with. If we can do it alone, then it'd be awesome. :)|||Quote:
sweet going to try GY later then :D thanks for help.
BTW - there are several rare spawns (silver dragon) that show up on occasion in the GY so be sure to look for them.
Fallen Champion
Azshir the Sleepless
and
Ironspine|||uhm ok i soloed SM GY today without any problems, but i got to say OMG it sucks, i made a total of 2 greens and 1 blue, which made me 5g and it took me 45min to run the whole thing..... now i can do dm in 30mins normal pace and it makes me a total of around 15g..... seriously GT sucks :D|||Quote:
On a related note, how well would a 47 Rogue and a 47 Arcane Mage do in the Library? The bf got a Mage quest for that area, but we can't find people who we could group with. If we can do it alone, then it'd be awesome. :)
No dice imo. Place is a bit too clustered for that, lot of casters and those monks like to kick, meaning no spellcasting.
Having said that, bit surprising that you can't get a group for that place. Considering Houndmaster Loksey is in that area as well, and he's a mandatory kill for a quest, together with Herod, Morgraine and Whitemane.
Plus, Lib leads to the key that you need to open the armory and the cathedral. Considering your levels, you might be better off asking for a Cath run and then asking the group nicely if they'll also do the Lib because of some open standing quests.
Oh, and if you're going in there. Make sure that you've been to the Needles, there's a quest there called, Test of Lore, which will eventually lead you to the Lib as well. Might as well, do them all in one fell swoop. Provided, you're Hordies of course.Oh and lest I forget, if non-Forsaken, then there's another book quest for SM Lib in TB.|||Quote:
On a related note, how well would a 47 Rogue and a 47 Arcane Mage do in the Library? The bf got a Mage quest for that area, but we can't find people who we could group with. If we can do it alone, then it'd be awesome. :)
47 mage and 47 rogue should easily clear library IMO. 2x CC, stunlock, kiting. Highest mob in ther3 is lvl 37 or 38.
on the other hand, i guess the quests and the mobs you kill will allready be grey to you, so why bother ? better try to find a maraudon group.|||hunter should be able to solo everything BUT houndmaster in library at around 48 or so..those dogs cause a little too much hell.
Deadmines reset question
Hi all,
I was in a Party of 2 doing the Deadmines. Up until we blow the door up with the canon If we die the monsters we have killed are still dead, but after we blow the door up with the canon If we die the monsters we have killed are back. what happed? What did we do wrong?
Thanks in Advance
Dave|||maybe you took too long to reach that point and the monsters started to respawn. or you were out of the instance for more than 30 minutres and there was a soft reset.
Also note that there are 3 or 4 patrouls of 3mobs each on the way to that door, which spawn after you passed them and come from behind.
I was in a Party of 2 doing the Deadmines. Up until we blow the door up with the canon If we die the monsters we have killed are still dead, but after we blow the door up with the canon If we die the monsters we have killed are back. what happed? What did we do wrong?
Thanks in Advance
Dave|||maybe you took too long to reach that point and the monsters started to respawn. or you were out of the instance for more than 30 minutres and there was a soft reset.
Also note that there are 3 or 4 patrouls of 3mobs each on the way to that door, which spawn after you passed them and come from behind.
leveling little chr in instance...how...does it work?
I have a 59 prot pally and a friend has an 18 mage.
He asked me to run him thru DM 2-3 times so he could get exp and maybe some blues.
Fine with me, so off we went. He did get items but very little exp. Is there a way to boost his exp I really thought he would get a level with me clearing it out. He got about 5 bars...what did we do wrong?
thanks for info if I can get something going correctly I will help him some more and even do others as well.|||Yeah that sounds about right.
For him to get great exp, you'd have to run something where the mobs are about 10+ levels over him. Getting 63-183 exp per mob during a run through (of a level appropriate instance for the mage)is standard, the higher the instance the more the exp. Though I believe there comes a time where the level is too high and he wont get exp (I tried this before with a friend in fellwood when I was 20'ish and didn't get any exp from the mobs - so watch killing too high of things) Also, make sure he's always just enough in range to get exp from all the mobs. In this case I'd head on over RFK, RFD, Gnomer, or SM (SM should last him a little while for the run throughs). As a leveling mage, the loot tables are much better in these instances anyways.|||generally if your alot higher lvl than some-one and your running them through a low ass instance then they will receive alot less XP than normal, he probably would have gotten more XP running with players his own lvl, generally lowbies get high level players to run them through stuff just for the loot.|||One thing to mention, as lothaer pointed out, most instance runs are more for the loot than for the exp because as I mentioned - he'll get that little bit of exp (which he could get more just killing mobs himself). If you want to help level him up more quickly I've found that power questing is awesome. Pick a zone and just burn through the quests with him - you could complete 10+ quests for him in under an hour (once you have cords). This works pretty nicely too, then run him through an instance when he has a bunch of quests to complete within them.|||So it looks like exp in instances is based on level of me as well as him. I thought at first he was just too far away but that didn't do much either, I was just trying to keep him from getting killed.
Since DM is a 20+ instance did that effect it more?
I guess the wand and staff are all he can get out of DM that will help him. Don't think there is anything in Stockades that would do him any good.|||Quote:
So it looks like exp in instances is based on level of me as well as him. I thought at first he was just too far away but that didn't do much either, I was just trying to keep him from getting killed.
Since DM is a 20+ instance did that effect it more?
I guess the wand and staff are all he can get out of DM that will help him. Don't think there is anything in Stockades that would do him any good.
Not just instances. Any exp generated while grouping w a high level char is trimmed down.
Stockades is crap for loot, take him to Gnomeregan once he won't die from proximity aggro. Great loot all around. Of special noteworthyness is a handy thing called [item]Hydrocane[/item].|||thanks I will as soon as he gets a few levels. I am going one more time hoping he can get the spoon, its not anything big but he wants it bad. I should change to enchanting and just pick up everything and disenchant it.
I have never been to Gnomeregan but will take him there too(what level ?)
heck where is the entrance LOL|||Quote:
I have never been to Gnomeregan but will take him there too(what level ?)
heck where is the entrance LOL
Follow the road downhill from the IronForge entrance then take the road going west. It leads you right to it.
Also, you could try finding a spot with a lot of mobs close by (obviously can't do this in an instance). Be ungrouped with your friend. (use Vent or create a chat channel in WoW so you can use WoW voice to communicate) Stand between him and the mobs (preferably mobs several levels higher than him but not so high that they agro before he can get within wand or casting range) Let him pull/tag the mobs and you kill them. He will get the exp and it will come a lot faster with you killing.|||Quote:
thanks I will as soon as he gets a few levels. I am going one more time hoping he can get the spoon, its not anything big but he wants it bad.
I'm guessing you mean [item]Cookie's Stirring Rod[/item]? It's an awesome wand for it's level (there's only one better before going over the level 20 bump) but let him know he'll replace it within a few levels, and probably with a green. It's great for twinks or if you get it on a normal run but that's about it IMO. Good luck!
Gnomer is located here with further info here.
A brief list of old world dungeons here|||In order to really make the exp/minute worth it you need to be killing F.A.S.T.
He asked me to run him thru DM 2-3 times so he could get exp and maybe some blues.
Fine with me, so off we went. He did get items but very little exp. Is there a way to boost his exp I really thought he would get a level with me clearing it out. He got about 5 bars...what did we do wrong?
thanks for info if I can get something going correctly I will help him some more and even do others as well.|||Yeah that sounds about right.
For him to get great exp, you'd have to run something where the mobs are about 10+ levels over him. Getting 63-183 exp per mob during a run through (of a level appropriate instance for the mage)is standard, the higher the instance the more the exp. Though I believe there comes a time where the level is too high and he wont get exp (I tried this before with a friend in fellwood when I was 20'ish and didn't get any exp from the mobs - so watch killing too high of things) Also, make sure he's always just enough in range to get exp from all the mobs. In this case I'd head on over RFK, RFD, Gnomer, or SM (SM should last him a little while for the run throughs). As a leveling mage, the loot tables are much better in these instances anyways.|||generally if your alot higher lvl than some-one and your running them through a low ass instance then they will receive alot less XP than normal, he probably would have gotten more XP running with players his own lvl, generally lowbies get high level players to run them through stuff just for the loot.|||One thing to mention, as lothaer pointed out, most instance runs are more for the loot than for the exp because as I mentioned - he'll get that little bit of exp (which he could get more just killing mobs himself). If you want to help level him up more quickly I've found that power questing is awesome. Pick a zone and just burn through the quests with him - you could complete 10+ quests for him in under an hour (once you have cords). This works pretty nicely too, then run him through an instance when he has a bunch of quests to complete within them.|||So it looks like exp in instances is based on level of me as well as him. I thought at first he was just too far away but that didn't do much either, I was just trying to keep him from getting killed.
Since DM is a 20+ instance did that effect it more?
I guess the wand and staff are all he can get out of DM that will help him. Don't think there is anything in Stockades that would do him any good.|||Quote:
So it looks like exp in instances is based on level of me as well as him. I thought at first he was just too far away but that didn't do much either, I was just trying to keep him from getting killed.
Since DM is a 20+ instance did that effect it more?
I guess the wand and staff are all he can get out of DM that will help him. Don't think there is anything in Stockades that would do him any good.
Not just instances. Any exp generated while grouping w a high level char is trimmed down.
Stockades is crap for loot, take him to Gnomeregan once he won't die from proximity aggro. Great loot all around. Of special noteworthyness is a handy thing called [item]Hydrocane[/item].|||thanks I will as soon as he gets a few levels. I am going one more time hoping he can get the spoon, its not anything big but he wants it bad. I should change to enchanting and just pick up everything and disenchant it.
I have never been to Gnomeregan but will take him there too(what level ?)
heck where is the entrance LOL|||Quote:
I have never been to Gnomeregan but will take him there too(what level ?)
heck where is the entrance LOL
Follow the road downhill from the IronForge entrance then take the road going west. It leads you right to it.
Also, you could try finding a spot with a lot of mobs close by (obviously can't do this in an instance). Be ungrouped with your friend. (use Vent or create a chat channel in WoW so you can use WoW voice to communicate) Stand between him and the mobs (preferably mobs several levels higher than him but not so high that they agro before he can get within wand or casting range) Let him pull/tag the mobs and you kill them. He will get the exp and it will come a lot faster with you killing.|||Quote:
thanks I will as soon as he gets a few levels. I am going one more time hoping he can get the spoon, its not anything big but he wants it bad.
I'm guessing you mean [item]Cookie's Stirring Rod[/item]? It's an awesome wand for it's level (there's only one better before going over the level 20 bump) but let him know he'll replace it within a few levels, and probably with a green. It's great for twinks or if you get it on a normal run but that's about it IMO. Good luck!
Gnomer is located here with further info here.
A brief list of old world dungeons here|||In order to really make the exp/minute worth it you need to be killing F.A.S.T.
Zul'Jin!
So, my guild cleared Zul'Aman last night. We have been working on the first 3 bosses or so since the patch, and this week we finally got a good group in and took down the Dragonhawk Boss and the Hex Lord, and made our way to Zul'Jin and eventually removed his other arm .
He must be one of the coolest fights I've experienced in a long time. He has 5 phases, with the third phase the most interesting, imo. I really got to hand it to Blizzard, they did a good job with Zul'Aman, and especially the final boss.
Anyone else down Zul'Jin? How did you enjoy the encounter? What was your favorite phase?|||Yep, we clear ZA in about two hours most weekends. It's a really nice instance- if you go in there with your gamefaces on. It deserves treating with a little respect though, as bits still hit hard, and a few fights (egg guy and end boss especially) require people to pay attention.
I really enjoy the eagle phase- the one where you take nature damage from casting. My resto shammy has an excellent toolset for it. At the start of the phase, I drop a wrath of air (extra spelldamage/healing), and a healing stream totem, then I earthshield myself. I then swap the wrath of air for a nature resist totem. That way, my group has an almost-free HoT ticking gently, and I can soak up a hell of a lot of damage due to the shield- plus the mitigation from the totem and the 10% flat nature damage reduction from the Elemental Warding talent. Pure win, and huge fun.
It's a cute fight, like a lightweight version of a real raid boss- five perfectly-formed little phases give the encounter loads of variety.
I did hate ZA at first, as people went in their with single-buttock groups "lead" by random egos (and kindly but inexperienced folks), with a poorly-considered assortment of people. It was tedious and expensive. Going in hot with a proper setup is just plain invigorating, though. We still haven't done the full timed run though, only the first two boxes- that will be fun.|||Quote:
Yep, we clear ZA in about two hours most weekends. It's a really nice instance- if you go in there with your gamefaces on. It deserves treating with a little respect though, as bits still hit hard, and a few fights (egg guy and end boss especially) require people to pay attention.
I really enjoy the eagle phase- the one where you take nature damage from casting. My resto shammy has an excellent toolset for it. At the start of the phase, I drop a wrath of air (extra spelldamage/healing), and a healing stream totem, then I earthshield myself. I then swap the wrath of air for a nature resist totem. That way, my group has an almost-free HoT ticking gently, and I can soak up a hell of a lot of damage due to the shield- plus the mitigation from the totem and the 10% flat nature damage reduction from the Elemental Warding talent. Pure win, and huge fun.
It's a cute fight, like a lightweight version of a real raid boss- five perfectly-formed little phases give the encounter loads of variety.
I did hate ZA at first, as people went in their with single-buttock groups "lead" by random egos (and kindly but inexperienced folks), with a poorly-considered assortment of people. It was tedious and expensive. Going in hot with a proper setup is just plain invigorating, though. We still haven't done the full timed run though, only the first two boxes- that will be fun.
We had the same problem too. Because we were raiding SSC/TK at the time ZA came out, we didn't take the new 10 man very seriously. We took in nonraiders, people who didnt even deserve to be in Kara with their green/blue gear, and other people who thought they could stroll in because there was no attunement. We got the first 2 bosses down easily enough, but the rest of the instance was a nightmare.
Both the dragonhawk and lynx bosses are really quite hard and throw out an enormous amount of damage to the tank. Just about everyone I've talked to thinks The dragonhawk boss is far harder than either Hex Lord or Zul'Jin, which doesn't make much sense, but thats how it goes.|||Kill command is a "spell" as far as the eagle phase is concerned. Doing it for the first time with a "/cast kill command" in front of all my shots and in my macro was brilliant..|||Lynx phase makes our healers curl up into a fetal position and sob uncontrollably.|||Quote:
Lynx phase makes our healers curl up into a fetal position and sob uncontrollably.
Really? I would have thought your guys would eat it for breakfast, as they're used to bosses like Rage Winterchill who target and pwn raid members, requiring focussed spam healing. We sometimes lose one flimsy mage in this phase, but it never seems to cause much concern.|||Quote:
Really? I would have thought your guys would eat it for breakfast, as they're used to bosses like Rage Winterchill who target and pwn raid members, requiring focussed spam healing. We sometimes lose one flimsy mage in this phase, but it never seems to cause much concern.
I'm in two raiding guilds, actually. My priest is in the badass Illidan-slaying powerhouse. My tankadin is in a semi-casual circle of friends that doesn't have the manpower for any 25-mans.
That comment referred to the latter.|||That makes a lot more sense- I was boggling a little.|||we are still on the eagle boss, but I do think Blizzard did a good job on Zul'aman, most of us where like "Oh another troll instance ala ZG" but it turned out to be very interesting :o
He must be one of the coolest fights I've experienced in a long time. He has 5 phases, with the third phase the most interesting, imo. I really got to hand it to Blizzard, they did a good job with Zul'Aman, and especially the final boss.
Anyone else down Zul'Jin? How did you enjoy the encounter? What was your favorite phase?|||Yep, we clear ZA in about two hours most weekends. It's a really nice instance- if you go in there with your gamefaces on. It deserves treating with a little respect though, as bits still hit hard, and a few fights (egg guy and end boss especially) require people to pay attention.
I really enjoy the eagle phase- the one where you take nature damage from casting. My resto shammy has an excellent toolset for it. At the start of the phase, I drop a wrath of air (extra spelldamage/healing), and a healing stream totem, then I earthshield myself. I then swap the wrath of air for a nature resist totem. That way, my group has an almost-free HoT ticking gently, and I can soak up a hell of a lot of damage due to the shield- plus the mitigation from the totem and the 10% flat nature damage reduction from the Elemental Warding talent. Pure win, and huge fun.
It's a cute fight, like a lightweight version of a real raid boss- five perfectly-formed little phases give the encounter loads of variety.
I did hate ZA at first, as people went in their with single-buttock groups "lead" by random egos (and kindly but inexperienced folks), with a poorly-considered assortment of people. It was tedious and expensive. Going in hot with a proper setup is just plain invigorating, though. We still haven't done the full timed run though, only the first two boxes- that will be fun.|||Quote:
Yep, we clear ZA in about two hours most weekends. It's a really nice instance- if you go in there with your gamefaces on. It deserves treating with a little respect though, as bits still hit hard, and a few fights (egg guy and end boss especially) require people to pay attention.
I really enjoy the eagle phase- the one where you take nature damage from casting. My resto shammy has an excellent toolset for it. At the start of the phase, I drop a wrath of air (extra spelldamage/healing), and a healing stream totem, then I earthshield myself. I then swap the wrath of air for a nature resist totem. That way, my group has an almost-free HoT ticking gently, and I can soak up a hell of a lot of damage due to the shield- plus the mitigation from the totem and the 10% flat nature damage reduction from the Elemental Warding talent. Pure win, and huge fun.
It's a cute fight, like a lightweight version of a real raid boss- five perfectly-formed little phases give the encounter loads of variety.
I did hate ZA at first, as people went in their with single-buttock groups "lead" by random egos (and kindly but inexperienced folks), with a poorly-considered assortment of people. It was tedious and expensive. Going in hot with a proper setup is just plain invigorating, though. We still haven't done the full timed run though, only the first two boxes- that will be fun.
We had the same problem too. Because we were raiding SSC/TK at the time ZA came out, we didn't take the new 10 man very seriously. We took in nonraiders, people who didnt even deserve to be in Kara with their green/blue gear, and other people who thought they could stroll in because there was no attunement. We got the first 2 bosses down easily enough, but the rest of the instance was a nightmare.
Both the dragonhawk and lynx bosses are really quite hard and throw out an enormous amount of damage to the tank. Just about everyone I've talked to thinks The dragonhawk boss is far harder than either Hex Lord or Zul'Jin, which doesn't make much sense, but thats how it goes.|||Kill command is a "spell" as far as the eagle phase is concerned. Doing it for the first time with a "/cast kill command" in front of all my shots and in my macro was brilliant..|||Lynx phase makes our healers curl up into a fetal position and sob uncontrollably.|||Quote:
Lynx phase makes our healers curl up into a fetal position and sob uncontrollably.
Really? I would have thought your guys would eat it for breakfast, as they're used to bosses like Rage Winterchill who target and pwn raid members, requiring focussed spam healing. We sometimes lose one flimsy mage in this phase, but it never seems to cause much concern.|||Quote:
Really? I would have thought your guys would eat it for breakfast, as they're used to bosses like Rage Winterchill who target and pwn raid members, requiring focussed spam healing. We sometimes lose one flimsy mage in this phase, but it never seems to cause much concern.
I'm in two raiding guilds, actually. My priest is in the badass Illidan-slaying powerhouse. My tankadin is in a semi-casual circle of friends that doesn't have the manpower for any 25-mans.
That comment referred to the latter.|||That makes a lot more sense- I was boggling a little.|||we are still on the eagle boss, but I do think Blizzard did a good job on Zul'aman, most of us where like "Oh another troll instance ala ZG" but it turned out to be very interesting :o
How can you see someone is attuned to Karazhan on the armory
We recently had someone aply for a raid spot for this week's kara run who isn't attuned yet (according to an ex guildie of him).
He says he is attuned, but never been in Kara.
How much Violet Eye rep should someone have when he did the entire attunement quest line but never set foot into kara?
Anyone knows?
I don't want to be in LFG for an extra dps slot for Kara, never know what you might get|||Perhaps others can help you on the answer to the rep question...
I'd like to suggest that you first believe the person (presumably a guildie) and if he turns out to be wrong, try to find out why. Have him link his key? Sure, people can fake that, but he won't do so if he wants to stay in the guild.
The ex-guildie probably doesn't keep track of everything the applicant does, and may not be up to speed on his attunements.|||Since he only recently transferred to us, I'm not sure if I can believe him, but I am inclined to do so. He seems to be a good guy too; just very defensive when Kara comes up. That makes me a bit suspicious.
It's just a first time Kara run for many of us and I want it to go as smoothly as possible :)|||[70] Arcane Disturbances (250 reputation)
[70] Restless Activity (250 reputation)
[70] Contact from Dalaran (75 reputation)
[70] Khadgar (75 reputation)
[70] Entry Into Karazhan (250 reputation)
[70] The Second and Third Fragments (350 reputation)
[70] The Master's Touch (350 reputation)
That's.. 1600/3000 neutral, I think..|||Any mobkills outside Kara that add rep? for the first two quests...|||Not 100% sure, but wowwiki says:
Quote:
You get reputation for killing bosses and trash mobs in Karazhan. Each trash mob awards around 15 reputation and the bosses 250 reputation. Reputation is also gained from the quest line for [The Master's Key], as well as the quest line which takes place inside the instance.
I'm 90% sure the mobs outside didn't used to- if they do now (since bliz are nerfing everything), I couldn't say. It has been a while since I had a 70 below exalted. It's a good point, though I'd be a bit scared of someone who went to all those lengths to look attuned when they weren't (if it were possible). I don't see the payoff..|||If he is a guildie there is a tool which you can use to check everyone's heroic keys and I think it includes Karazhan. You just type your realm and guild name in and it gives you a full list of members.
Unfortunately the page has goldseller ads on it so I can't link it but check your PMs.|||He turns out to be attuned :) but he has more rep than you calculated Moopy, he has 2175 total rep.
Must be the mobs outside Kara then.
Thanks for the help guys!|||Quote:
He turns out to be attuned :) but he has more rep than you calculated Moopy, he has 2175 total rep.
Must be the mobs outside Kara then.
Thanks for the help guys!
In two hours, you went from not knowing to knowing...
What confirmed it, out of curiosity?|||Yeah, what I listed was a minimum, there's a bit more that you can do outside kara after you have your key from Medivh, returning to the NPCs outside Kara itself, I don't think it was mobs..
He says he is attuned, but never been in Kara.
How much Violet Eye rep should someone have when he did the entire attunement quest line but never set foot into kara?
Anyone knows?
I don't want to be in LFG for an extra dps slot for Kara, never know what you might get|||Perhaps others can help you on the answer to the rep question...
I'd like to suggest that you first believe the person (presumably a guildie) and if he turns out to be wrong, try to find out why. Have him link his key? Sure, people can fake that, but he won't do so if he wants to stay in the guild.
The ex-guildie probably doesn't keep track of everything the applicant does, and may not be up to speed on his attunements.|||Since he only recently transferred to us, I'm not sure if I can believe him, but I am inclined to do so. He seems to be a good guy too; just very defensive when Kara comes up. That makes me a bit suspicious.
It's just a first time Kara run for many of us and I want it to go as smoothly as possible :)|||[70] Arcane Disturbances (250 reputation)
[70] Restless Activity (250 reputation)
[70] Contact from Dalaran (75 reputation)
[70] Khadgar (75 reputation)
[70] Entry Into Karazhan (250 reputation)
[70] The Second and Third Fragments (350 reputation)
[70] The Master's Touch (350 reputation)
That's.. 1600/3000 neutral, I think..|||Any mobkills outside Kara that add rep? for the first two quests...|||Not 100% sure, but wowwiki says:
Quote:
You get reputation for killing bosses and trash mobs in Karazhan. Each trash mob awards around 15 reputation and the bosses 250 reputation. Reputation is also gained from the quest line for [The Master's Key], as well as the quest line which takes place inside the instance.
I'm 90% sure the mobs outside didn't used to- if they do now (since bliz are nerfing everything), I couldn't say. It has been a while since I had a 70 below exalted. It's a good point, though I'd be a bit scared of someone who went to all those lengths to look attuned when they weren't (if it were possible). I don't see the payoff..|||If he is a guildie there is a tool which you can use to check everyone's heroic keys and I think it includes Karazhan. You just type your realm and guild name in and it gives you a full list of members.
Unfortunately the page has goldseller ads on it so I can't link it but check your PMs.|||He turns out to be attuned :) but he has more rep than you calculated Moopy, he has 2175 total rep.
Must be the mobs outside Kara then.
Thanks for the help guys!|||Quote:
He turns out to be attuned :) but he has more rep than you calculated Moopy, he has 2175 total rep.
Must be the mobs outside Kara then.
Thanks for the help guys!
In two hours, you went from not knowing to knowing...
What confirmed it, out of curiosity?|||Yeah, what I listed was a minimum, there's a bit more that you can do outside kara after you have your key from Medivh, returning to the NPCs outside Kara itself, I don't think it was mobs..
Dkp
my guild has just started using a form of dkp to try and keep loot in the 25 man raids as fair as poss. we dont want some person coming into the raid first night and taking the loot on a roll over a raider who has sent the last few nights learning the fight.
at the moment we are using this first week to build points up and next week we use dkp to bid on loot. we are unsure the best way to carry on and do the actual bids though. we have 3 ideas that seem popular:
1 we set a dkp value on every type of drop and the person with the highest dkp who wants the drop gets offered, if they take it then we just deduct the value from total dkp, if we have 2 or more on same dkp then they roll between them.
2 we have blind bids and have a max of 3 bids per person to master looter. at the end the master looter says joe blogs won 85 dkp.
3 we have an open bid system and you all bid in raid chat then people just drop out of race.
if any bid is tied then we will just revert to standard dice roll.
can you guys please leave me info on the pros and cons of each bid ystem as you find them in your guild so we can have a bit more experience to help us choose.|||I have done 1 and 3, so I'll tell you what can happen there
1) Person 1 sits in all the raids, gets ahead of the rest of the pack and basically can get any first drop they ever want. If an item isn't popular anymore due to having dropped 5 times, you're still asking 5-8 people if they want it, which wastes time. It'll also mean that most of the loot is winding up on a single person, rather than spread out through the raid mostly.
3) Items can get damn expensive. We have a minimum bid on or 200 tier items. I spent 1300 and 1500 on T5 shoulders and Pants.
In a way this is good, cos this'll clear out excess DKP right fast. In a way it's bad, as people don't like spending 900 DKP for something that goes for 200 3 weeks later.
We don't do ties - first to bid a price will win the item at that cost if someone doesn't raise the bid by a minimum of 10.
---
Personally, I prefer fixed prices due to avoiding much whining in terms of cost. But, to be fair, the other one will have loot spread out more evenly across the raid. If you spend 1300 for a tier part, you can be sure it'll be a while before you get something again when the average night will get you around 100-150 DKP.
And, as items devaluate in terms of 'value' - ie, the people mainly interested in it have it and the people who are bidding only want it for an offspec - the lower price denotes that as well.
The most important part is to be clear on your system, have one system and stick to it. I may not be a huge fan of bidding, but my current guild uses it and it works for them, so I'm not going to be throwing a hissy fit about it. If it works, it works.|||i dont like fixed prices.
1 : those who want the item first can pay more, those who are patient can pay less. i like that.
2 : after the 10th drop, nonne needs it any more. but some people may want it for pvp / offspec / minor improvement. But they still have to pay the full price ?
3 : setting prices for every item is alot of work.
just make open bidding. it is fair, everyone sees what is going on, prices regulate themselfs. if you want to be the first with T6 soulders, so be it, but it will cost you. fair IMO.|||I've experienced various forms of dkp... most important thing to remember: no system is perfect, or perfectly fair. There will always be complaints.
The big choice you are facing is bidding vs fixed price.
Bidding:
+ Variable pricing. If something is just a slight upgrade, somebody can just bid a little bit. If a new joiner is hoovering up the loot that nobody else wants, they don't get stuck on -1000000 dkp for the rest of their life. Market forces decide values. Some things consistently go for a lot, others don't, largely determined by how useful they are to how many people.
+ Tends to keep everybody within a reasonable range of each other. If somebody has built up a lot of dkp, the chances are that they will spend a lot to win something, and it all tends to balance out through market forces.
- Variable pricing. Some people will find it unfair that the first people to get an item pay more.
- Open to manipulation. People can form cartels to take it in turns to get things at minimum price. People can deliberate bid so as to strip somebody of most of their dkp, in order to get a future drop. I'm sure folks can think of other ways ;-) This is the biggest single problem with any bid-based system.
Fixed prices:
+ "fair", as everybody pays the same for the same gear
- Somebody has to decide the prices. This can be done based on ilevel, which leaves some items vastly overpriced when Blizzard has got their points allocation wrong. Or it can be done by a committee, who may have limited views of what the "correct" itemisation for some classes is. However it's done, there will probably be moans.
- No way for people to pick up items that everybody else already has cheaply. This may be perceived as unfriendly to people who don't attend Every Raid Ever, in casual guilds.
- Items that are small upgrades for people, or upgrades that are likely to be superceded, will tend to be disenchanted to save dkp - even though having them equipped by somebody would benefit the raid. A way around this is upgrade pricing - complicated to administer, but in my view almost essential to make a fixed-price system work (otherwise, for example, who is going to spend dkp on T4 shoulders when they might get T5 shoulders the following week)
- Potential for inflation unless incoming and outgoing dkp are not carefully balanced. At an extreme, zero-sum systems ensure that no dkp ever enters or leaves the system, thus banishing inflation / deflation, but this also makes it difficult to award or deduct dkp for anything other than boss kills, which makes it unsuitable for some guilds.
- No real way for a late joiner to "catch up" and eventually be on an equal gear + dkp footing as their longer-serving colleagues. This sounds like a good thing on the face of it, but if a new player joins the guild in, say, SSC, and spends a year of dedicated raiding, should they still be last in the loot queue at Illidan?
If you're going to bid, IMHO the simplest way is to use secret bids where you only bid once, and the winner gets it for the second highest bid +1. If people bid and rebid, and pay the actual amount that they bid, then slowly bidding up prices will take forever. If it's done in public, the potential for manipulation (already there, but with some risk attached) goes through the roof.
If you're going to use fixed prices, I recommend a zero-sum system if your guild can stomach it. Decide prices based on ilevel (and slot), but allow flexibility for the officers to lower the prices of things that are being consistently DEed. If you're using fixed prices you should consider upgrade pricing (so that somebody winning T5 shoulders who already has T4 only pays the difference in cost between the two). Consider writing off very old gains and losses (>6 months, perhaps), to prevent enormous stockpiles of dkp or permenantly-bottom-of-the-queue woes.
Lastly, keep it simple, so that people can understand and trust it, and STICK TO IT.
HTH :-)|||We had a lot of loot issues.
We went to a staged type of dkp system, where a boss gives more dkp the first few times you down him.
That means the first few drops of an item, while costing more you will get more dkp from that boss.
Once the boss is on farm, dkp is smaller..and bids are smaller.
Open bidding, it works pretty good.|||We use an attendance/last loot ratio. All loot has the same price, but we use two lists. One for major upgrades and one for minor (offspecc, very slight upgrades etc). None of the members knows their "score" and everybody has a "wishlist" with the loot they want. The wishlists are on the website and officers handling loot simply click the item to see who curently has the best score in that instance and gets the item.
The downside is that people can gamble on nobody else having an item on major and grab it as a minor, but officers can overule it and nobody knows their score anyway and they risk competing with other classes that could use said item for an offspec.
I've used every type of dkp system, and this is by far the best I've seen. It can be exploited to some extent, but it's very easy to spot by whoever is handling loot. The biggest downside is that it takes a bit of programming to run the system efficiently.|||We use a blind bidding system. Minimum bid for MH/BT items is 10 for main spec, 7 for off spec. T5 instance loot is 7 and 3 respectively, T4 is just a free roll.
DKP for a night varies....10 for a normal night, around 40 if we down a new boss. People on standby get DKP as long as they're available....if we call out that someone needs a summon and you aren't online or on vent, you lose your dkp for the night. If I'm sitting that night, I'll just park my main at the stone and farm on my alt. We'll also have sitting people either run instances so we can get shards or farm (especially for fire cauldrons on Arch). Tie bids are rolled on.
I was in a guild where bidding was over raid chat....didn't like it as it took wayyyy too long and you can overinflate an item by bidding someone up to make them spend their dkp. I really like the way we do it since it causes you to really think about what items you're going to blow your wad on. Druid T6 helm went for over 300dkp the first time it dropped, I got the bow from Arch for 148, end game healing staff went for 320 or so.
This also helps you to bid your points wisely...there have been people who have bid over 100dkp on an item and the next closest bid was in the 30's.|||Giving dkp to people that had to pass makes leading a raid that much easier. As long as people show up and want to raid (and stay available) they deserve dkp every bit as much as those that got to raid imo.|||Although DKP is sometimes necessary for some loot distribution, I often see that ppl can use each and every system to manipulate and no DKP system is perfect like a few posters have mentioned here. I suppose its all about the skill a player has with how with how to use his DKP or if he is good friends with others in the same class etc...
Anyway personally I prefer the element of chance, after all this is a role playing game, and feel that even a new player to the encounter for the first time should at least have a chance to receive an award for the being part of the collective effort of an end boss encounter regardless.
So was just wondering if any one has experimented with using something like DKP role modifiers? Where there is a combination of both chance and DKP?
i.e if you had like 10DKP would add an extra +10 to /roll 100|||Our guild has a zero sum fixed dkp system. It works nicely, as long as people don't start to complain about items being expensive or not. The prices are generated by the dkp system I think, don't know exactly.
DKP is gained when people bid on items, it's a recycle system. So if everything is sharded or given to people for offspec, noone gains dkp. Works nicely, it encourages people to bid (i.e. people are pushed a bit).
But it all comes down on discipline and maturity imo. I think a big advantage of this system is that it's not much work for officers (it's all automated) and noone has to make up prices (which leads to discussion). And bidding, although I like it, most other people hate that.
at the moment we are using this first week to build points up and next week we use dkp to bid on loot. we are unsure the best way to carry on and do the actual bids though. we have 3 ideas that seem popular:
1 we set a dkp value on every type of drop and the person with the highest dkp who wants the drop gets offered, if they take it then we just deduct the value from total dkp, if we have 2 or more on same dkp then they roll between them.
2 we have blind bids and have a max of 3 bids per person to master looter. at the end the master looter says joe blogs won 85 dkp.
3 we have an open bid system and you all bid in raid chat then people just drop out of race.
if any bid is tied then we will just revert to standard dice roll.
can you guys please leave me info on the pros and cons of each bid ystem as you find them in your guild so we can have a bit more experience to help us choose.|||I have done 1 and 3, so I'll tell you what can happen there
1) Person 1 sits in all the raids, gets ahead of the rest of the pack and basically can get any first drop they ever want. If an item isn't popular anymore due to having dropped 5 times, you're still asking 5-8 people if they want it, which wastes time. It'll also mean that most of the loot is winding up on a single person, rather than spread out through the raid mostly.
3) Items can get damn expensive. We have a minimum bid on or 200 tier items. I spent 1300 and 1500 on T5 shoulders and Pants.
In a way this is good, cos this'll clear out excess DKP right fast. In a way it's bad, as people don't like spending 900 DKP for something that goes for 200 3 weeks later.
We don't do ties - first to bid a price will win the item at that cost if someone doesn't raise the bid by a minimum of 10.
---
Personally, I prefer fixed prices due to avoiding much whining in terms of cost. But, to be fair, the other one will have loot spread out more evenly across the raid. If you spend 1300 for a tier part, you can be sure it'll be a while before you get something again when the average night will get you around 100-150 DKP.
And, as items devaluate in terms of 'value' - ie, the people mainly interested in it have it and the people who are bidding only want it for an offspec - the lower price denotes that as well.
The most important part is to be clear on your system, have one system and stick to it. I may not be a huge fan of bidding, but my current guild uses it and it works for them, so I'm not going to be throwing a hissy fit about it. If it works, it works.|||i dont like fixed prices.
1 : those who want the item first can pay more, those who are patient can pay less. i like that.
2 : after the 10th drop, nonne needs it any more. but some people may want it for pvp / offspec / minor improvement. But they still have to pay the full price ?
3 : setting prices for every item is alot of work.
just make open bidding. it is fair, everyone sees what is going on, prices regulate themselfs. if you want to be the first with T6 soulders, so be it, but it will cost you. fair IMO.|||I've experienced various forms of dkp... most important thing to remember: no system is perfect, or perfectly fair. There will always be complaints.
The big choice you are facing is bidding vs fixed price.
Bidding:
+ Variable pricing. If something is just a slight upgrade, somebody can just bid a little bit. If a new joiner is hoovering up the loot that nobody else wants, they don't get stuck on -1000000 dkp for the rest of their life. Market forces decide values. Some things consistently go for a lot, others don't, largely determined by how useful they are to how many people.
+ Tends to keep everybody within a reasonable range of each other. If somebody has built up a lot of dkp, the chances are that they will spend a lot to win something, and it all tends to balance out through market forces.
- Variable pricing. Some people will find it unfair that the first people to get an item pay more.
- Open to manipulation. People can form cartels to take it in turns to get things at minimum price. People can deliberate bid so as to strip somebody of most of their dkp, in order to get a future drop. I'm sure folks can think of other ways ;-) This is the biggest single problem with any bid-based system.
Fixed prices:
+ "fair", as everybody pays the same for the same gear
- Somebody has to decide the prices. This can be done based on ilevel, which leaves some items vastly overpriced when Blizzard has got their points allocation wrong. Or it can be done by a committee, who may have limited views of what the "correct" itemisation for some classes is. However it's done, there will probably be moans.
- No way for people to pick up items that everybody else already has cheaply. This may be perceived as unfriendly to people who don't attend Every Raid Ever, in casual guilds.
- Items that are small upgrades for people, or upgrades that are likely to be superceded, will tend to be disenchanted to save dkp - even though having them equipped by somebody would benefit the raid. A way around this is upgrade pricing - complicated to administer, but in my view almost essential to make a fixed-price system work (otherwise, for example, who is going to spend dkp on T4 shoulders when they might get T5 shoulders the following week)
- Potential for inflation unless incoming and outgoing dkp are not carefully balanced. At an extreme, zero-sum systems ensure that no dkp ever enters or leaves the system, thus banishing inflation / deflation, but this also makes it difficult to award or deduct dkp for anything other than boss kills, which makes it unsuitable for some guilds.
- No real way for a late joiner to "catch up" and eventually be on an equal gear + dkp footing as their longer-serving colleagues. This sounds like a good thing on the face of it, but if a new player joins the guild in, say, SSC, and spends a year of dedicated raiding, should they still be last in the loot queue at Illidan?
If you're going to bid, IMHO the simplest way is to use secret bids where you only bid once, and the winner gets it for the second highest bid +1. If people bid and rebid, and pay the actual amount that they bid, then slowly bidding up prices will take forever. If it's done in public, the potential for manipulation (already there, but with some risk attached) goes through the roof.
If you're going to use fixed prices, I recommend a zero-sum system if your guild can stomach it. Decide prices based on ilevel (and slot), but allow flexibility for the officers to lower the prices of things that are being consistently DEed. If you're using fixed prices you should consider upgrade pricing (so that somebody winning T5 shoulders who already has T4 only pays the difference in cost between the two). Consider writing off very old gains and losses (>6 months, perhaps), to prevent enormous stockpiles of dkp or permenantly-bottom-of-the-queue woes.
Lastly, keep it simple, so that people can understand and trust it, and STICK TO IT.
HTH :-)|||We had a lot of loot issues.
We went to a staged type of dkp system, where a boss gives more dkp the first few times you down him.
That means the first few drops of an item, while costing more you will get more dkp from that boss.
Once the boss is on farm, dkp is smaller..and bids are smaller.
Open bidding, it works pretty good.|||We use an attendance/last loot ratio. All loot has the same price, but we use two lists. One for major upgrades and one for minor (offspecc, very slight upgrades etc). None of the members knows their "score" and everybody has a "wishlist" with the loot they want. The wishlists are on the website and officers handling loot simply click the item to see who curently has the best score in that instance and gets the item.
The downside is that people can gamble on nobody else having an item on major and grab it as a minor, but officers can overule it and nobody knows their score anyway and they risk competing with other classes that could use said item for an offspec.
I've used every type of dkp system, and this is by far the best I've seen. It can be exploited to some extent, but it's very easy to spot by whoever is handling loot. The biggest downside is that it takes a bit of programming to run the system efficiently.|||We use a blind bidding system. Minimum bid for MH/BT items is 10 for main spec, 7 for off spec. T5 instance loot is 7 and 3 respectively, T4 is just a free roll.
DKP for a night varies....10 for a normal night, around 40 if we down a new boss. People on standby get DKP as long as they're available....if we call out that someone needs a summon and you aren't online or on vent, you lose your dkp for the night. If I'm sitting that night, I'll just park my main at the stone and farm on my alt. We'll also have sitting people either run instances so we can get shards or farm (especially for fire cauldrons on Arch). Tie bids are rolled on.
I was in a guild where bidding was over raid chat....didn't like it as it took wayyyy too long and you can overinflate an item by bidding someone up to make them spend their dkp. I really like the way we do it since it causes you to really think about what items you're going to blow your wad on. Druid T6 helm went for over 300dkp the first time it dropped, I got the bow from Arch for 148, end game healing staff went for 320 or so.
This also helps you to bid your points wisely...there have been people who have bid over 100dkp on an item and the next closest bid was in the 30's.|||Giving dkp to people that had to pass makes leading a raid that much easier. As long as people show up and want to raid (and stay available) they deserve dkp every bit as much as those that got to raid imo.|||Although DKP is sometimes necessary for some loot distribution, I often see that ppl can use each and every system to manipulate and no DKP system is perfect like a few posters have mentioned here. I suppose its all about the skill a player has with how with how to use his DKP or if he is good friends with others in the same class etc...
Anyway personally I prefer the element of chance, after all this is a role playing game, and feel that even a new player to the encounter for the first time should at least have a chance to receive an award for the being part of the collective effort of an end boss encounter regardless.
So was just wondering if any one has experimented with using something like DKP role modifiers? Where there is a combination of both chance and DKP?
i.e if you had like 10DKP would add an extra +10 to /roll 100|||Our guild has a zero sum fixed dkp system. It works nicely, as long as people don't start to complain about items being expensive or not. The prices are generated by the dkp system I think, don't know exactly.
DKP is gained when people bid on items, it's a recycle system. So if everything is sharded or given to people for offspec, noone gains dkp. Works nicely, it encourages people to bid (i.e. people are pushed a bit).
But it all comes down on discipline and maturity imo. I think a big advantage of this system is that it's not much work for officers (it's all automated) and noone has to make up prices (which leads to discussion). And bidding, although I like it, most other people hate that.
Best Instances for a Mage lvl 53
Lo all,
whats the best Instance(s) for a mage level 53, i do have BC :)
looking for some good drops mainly :D|||Look at your auto-group (looking for group button on UI bar) and choose dungeon. It will tell you which instances are good for your level, and will allow you to auto-add yourself to groups looking for members for the instances.|||At that level, I think I was spending a fair amount of time in the Sunken Temple.
However, I wouldn't be worried too much about drops from instances. Pretty much anything you find in an instance will be replaced by an Outlands green at 58. I'd just focus on leveling up if your main interest is the loot.
Other than that, I would pick instances based on which ones you have lots of quests for.|||You should be able to pick up all the quests for BRD at 53 iirc. Don't expect to do all your quests there if you get a group however (this place is HUGE). You're a level or two above Maraudon, but it should still give decent experience and loot at 53.
As Cattleya said, The Sunken Temple is probably the most suited instance, but I wouldn't turn down Mara or BRD. You'll provide very good crowd control with sheep no matter and this will really start to shine in BRD as most mobs there are sheepable.|||thnx for the info :)|||Quote:
thnx for the info :)
Well, please by all means visit the instances (as said ST is your best spot right now) if you want to see them, not a thing wrong with that at all. But, really, if loot is all you are after, everything that looks real shiny and "uber" to you right now will be put to shame within 5 quests in Outlands, either through rewards, drops, or, if you so choose, level 58 greens at the AH. Just an opinion of course :)
whats the best Instance(s) for a mage level 53, i do have BC :)
looking for some good drops mainly :D|||Look at your auto-group (looking for group button on UI bar) and choose dungeon. It will tell you which instances are good for your level, and will allow you to auto-add yourself to groups looking for members for the instances.|||At that level, I think I was spending a fair amount of time in the Sunken Temple.
However, I wouldn't be worried too much about drops from instances. Pretty much anything you find in an instance will be replaced by an Outlands green at 58. I'd just focus on leveling up if your main interest is the loot.
Other than that, I would pick instances based on which ones you have lots of quests for.|||You should be able to pick up all the quests for BRD at 53 iirc. Don't expect to do all your quests there if you get a group however (this place is HUGE). You're a level or two above Maraudon, but it should still give decent experience and loot at 53.
As Cattleya said, The Sunken Temple is probably the most suited instance, but I wouldn't turn down Mara or BRD. You'll provide very good crowd control with sheep no matter and this will really start to shine in BRD as most mobs there are sheepable.|||thnx for the info :)|||Quote:
thnx for the info :)
Well, please by all means visit the instances (as said ST is your best spot right now) if you want to see them, not a thing wrong with that at all. But, really, if loot is all you are after, everything that looks real shiny and "uber" to you right now will be put to shame within 5 quests in Outlands, either through rewards, drops, or, if you so choose, level 58 greens at the AH. Just an opinion of course :)
Question about H. Ramps
So I'm just getting heroics and I cleared my first H. Ramps the other day with me tanking. I had tried this the previous day and we ended up disbanding because we couldn't kill the pull at the top of the stairs with the Bleeding Hollow Ripper + 4 Bleeding Hollow Darkcasters and wiped 4 times to it before we threw in the towel.
On the run where I finally did clear it, the strategy was that I (tank) would keep aggro only on the Ripper. An elemental shaman kept spamming chain lightning and rogue + warlock were DPSing (and thus tanking) all 4 of the casters at once. Throw in a few fears from the warlock every now and then, and this worked beautifully, as apparently those casters don't hit all that hard.
My question is how else might I handle this in different types of group setups? I had the idea that if there's a priest in my party, maybe I can start out by having the priest Mind Control one of the darkcasters and then spam rain of fire on the entire group. Once the MC breaks or the MC'd mob dies, I can Taunt the Ripper, then use Challening Shout if necessary to keep the priest from dying, and have everyone else DPS down what's left of the darkcaster's HP. Has anyone tried this? Or if you have another method to do this pull short of having 3 mages, I'd like to hear it.|||A hunter can misdirect themselve/pet and multishoot the group and kite them all the way back which the tank grabs the ripper as he comes past and have the dps focus on 1 of the casters. Once the caster dies dps can take down the ripper then the hunter can FD and you shouldn't have too much trouble taking down the casters that are left.|||Nice, I like that. It's advantageous in that the only thing required to execute it is 1 hunter. No CC at all. So the hunter runs all the way back to the start of the instance before using FD? If you do it this way you'll have to clear those 2 pulls after the first boss that everyone always skips, but that's not a huge deal.|||you know what I do
I shoot the ripper and run down stairs and the groups at the bottom of the stairs waiting.
Once I get there, the 4 spellcasters catch up and begin to cast, I hit shield reflect.
Time it right, you will reflect all four and retain agro on them from the 2Kish damage done to each
Then pop intimidation shout n send em flying.
Really we just fear em around a bit, LOS them and so forth
If the healer starts getting hit, he can step back out of that lower room a little to make the caster come forward
You can keep shield reflecting every... 10 ? seconds.|||I don't see the problem ?
The casters are low health.
Tank takes the ripper, tanks it around the corner to LoS pull the rest of the pack and avoid a fear pull into the next pack.
Nuke down the casters asap. Nuke down ripper. Enjoy ?|||Yeah, i'm with Aerath. Pull onto t he ramp so if you get feared you don't run into the open area past them, kill their butts. if that's a strat that's hard to execute at your gear level then use CC liberally. You can overdo CC but it's a capability of a lot of classes for a reason.|||Quote:
Nice, I like that. It's advantageous in that the only thing required to execute it is 1 hunter. No CC at all. So the hunter runs all the way back to the start of the instance before using FD? If you do it this way you'll have to clear those 2 pulls after the first boss that everyone always skips, but that's not a huge deal.
I can attest to this working even though we didn't clear at least one of the pulls after the boss. We didn't have any AoE fears and nothing else worked, so after wiping three times, I grabbed what I could and ran for the entrance. worked fine.|||My favorite method is something along the lines of "Corner pull with Avenger's Shield, drop a Consecration, activate Arcane Torrent".|||Quote:
My favorite method is something along the lines of "Corner pull with Avenger's Shield, drop a Consecration, activate Arcane Torrent".
*mutters something about OP Horde racials*|||lol gotta love aerath...
get your group far back enough, have hunter pull with trap and fd once hits trap... once trap breaks he will try to run back, pop a shot on him, and youll pull him again...drag him to group and should be nooblet sauce
On the run where I finally did clear it, the strategy was that I (tank) would keep aggro only on the Ripper. An elemental shaman kept spamming chain lightning and rogue + warlock were DPSing (and thus tanking) all 4 of the casters at once. Throw in a few fears from the warlock every now and then, and this worked beautifully, as apparently those casters don't hit all that hard.
My question is how else might I handle this in different types of group setups? I had the idea that if there's a priest in my party, maybe I can start out by having the priest Mind Control one of the darkcasters and then spam rain of fire on the entire group. Once the MC breaks or the MC'd mob dies, I can Taunt the Ripper, then use Challening Shout if necessary to keep the priest from dying, and have everyone else DPS down what's left of the darkcaster's HP. Has anyone tried this? Or if you have another method to do this pull short of having 3 mages, I'd like to hear it.|||A hunter can misdirect themselve/pet and multishoot the group and kite them all the way back which the tank grabs the ripper as he comes past and have the dps focus on 1 of the casters. Once the caster dies dps can take down the ripper then the hunter can FD and you shouldn't have too much trouble taking down the casters that are left.|||Nice, I like that. It's advantageous in that the only thing required to execute it is 1 hunter. No CC at all. So the hunter runs all the way back to the start of the instance before using FD? If you do it this way you'll have to clear those 2 pulls after the first boss that everyone always skips, but that's not a huge deal.|||you know what I do
I shoot the ripper and run down stairs and the groups at the bottom of the stairs waiting.
Once I get there, the 4 spellcasters catch up and begin to cast, I hit shield reflect.
Time it right, you will reflect all four and retain agro on them from the 2Kish damage done to each
Then pop intimidation shout n send em flying.
Really we just fear em around a bit, LOS them and so forth
If the healer starts getting hit, he can step back out of that lower room a little to make the caster come forward
You can keep shield reflecting every... 10 ? seconds.|||I don't see the problem ?
The casters are low health.
Tank takes the ripper, tanks it around the corner to LoS pull the rest of the pack and avoid a fear pull into the next pack.
Nuke down the casters asap. Nuke down ripper. Enjoy ?|||Yeah, i'm with Aerath. Pull onto t he ramp so if you get feared you don't run into the open area past them, kill their butts. if that's a strat that's hard to execute at your gear level then use CC liberally. You can overdo CC but it's a capability of a lot of classes for a reason.|||Quote:
Nice, I like that. It's advantageous in that the only thing required to execute it is 1 hunter. No CC at all. So the hunter runs all the way back to the start of the instance before using FD? If you do it this way you'll have to clear those 2 pulls after the first boss that everyone always skips, but that's not a huge deal.
I can attest to this working even though we didn't clear at least one of the pulls after the boss. We didn't have any AoE fears and nothing else worked, so after wiping three times, I grabbed what I could and ran for the entrance. worked fine.|||My favorite method is something along the lines of "Corner pull with Avenger's Shield, drop a Consecration, activate Arcane Torrent".|||Quote:
My favorite method is something along the lines of "Corner pull with Avenger's Shield, drop a Consecration, activate Arcane Torrent".
*mutters something about OP Horde racials*|||lol gotta love aerath...
get your group far back enough, have hunter pull with trap and fd once hits trap... once trap breaks he will try to run back, pop a shot on him, and youll pull him again...drag him to group and should be nooblet sauce
Loot division
Ok, I know there must be a post about it somewhere but since I cant find it I decided to make a new post.
My guild is a casual raiding guild. We do not have a minimum attendence rating. We are doing 25 man since a few days and are a bit lost on how best to do the loot division. So I thought I would ask you guys for opinions.
We do not want dkp probably, because of the no raid attendence thing. We are doing normal no whine rolling in 10 mans, but are thinking about having a bit more control over the 25 man division.
Do any of you have a good idea of how to divide the loot, with rolling or other methodes without using dkp?
Greets, Shanna|||Loot Council would work, but I'd seriously advise you to look at one of the several DKP systems out there.
The council things tend to give more drama than an HBO series.
Rolling inevitably will lead to whining as well.
DKP can be setup in a multitude of ways - no attendance does not need to feature in your system. What DKP in short does is reward those people who helped you learn the fights and are present a lot, as opposed to the people who stepped in when it's a certain kill and got lucky on the roll.|||Quote:
Loot Council would work, but I'd seriously advise you to look at one of the several DKP systems out there.
Could you please tell what Loot Council is exactly? How does it work?
Quote:
What DKP in short does is reward those people who helped you learn the fights and are present a lot, as opposed to the people who stepped in when it's a certain kill and got lucky on the roll.
My point was we DO NOT want to reward those that are present a lot. We would just like to know if there are alternative solutions to DKP. Do anyone know of any?
Shanna|||There are very good reasons for using a DKP system of some sort. I really can't see any reason why you don't want to reward attendance tbh. Bringing as many of the same people as possible to a raid is a big plus when learning any encounter. Bringing a new raid means you'll have to learn the encounter over again.
Another point is that people expect to get rewarded for the effort they put in. If showing up doesn't help you'll have big problems holding the guild together.
To answer your question more directly I think you'll have to look into loot councils
http://www.wowwiki.com/Loot_Council
I recommend using some sort of dkp however. You can still overule who gets what if it doesn't feel right, but it should be used very sparingly. We do it when people clearly won't be able to use the item for raiding and somebody else that can wants it.|||Quote:
My point was we DO NOT want to reward those that are present a lot.
Why not? That seems counterproductive and does not reward those that are committed to your guild. Don't forget, committed guild members are what hold a guild together - but they need to feel like their commitment has given them something that the guy that just joined does not get. Without committed members, your guild will break up. And if you're not rewarding commitment, then that positive mentality that you're getting from the members may soon change as they don't feel appreciated.
So Joe hs been with you from day one when you started the guild (meaning he's most likely ran people in instances or at least ran with them when he didn't necessarily want to, he's helped others with quests etc), he comes to every raid, has helped the main group learn the encounters, shows up on time and stays till the end. Jimmy, who just joined the guild yesterday, started raiding with you b/c your **insert class** had to quit or his schedule changed or whatever. Jimmy is generally 5-10 mins late (making the entire raid wait) he learned the encounter with his previous guild (not a big deal - BUT he didn't go through the struggle, repair and pot costs, possible frustration, and late nights of learning the encounter with the rest of you), and he often has to go right at the end of the raid (depending on his bed time) leaving you to find another **insert class** on the fly.
But you want Jimmy to have the same rights to loot as Joe? Wtf? Joe has seriously earned his chance at the loot - what has Jimmy done?
IMO this means that eventually Joe is gonna find a guild that WILL reward his commitment and time that he extends to other guildies and the guild itself. Then all you'll have is a bunch of Jimmies that want something for nothing, because you have been rewarding them this way, and this is what they are starting to expect (show up once = get phat lootz [it doesn't matter if you're a regular raider]). At this point, you have a guild of loot whores, whiners, and people that space out or leave raids early or whenever they don't get what they want.
|||Quote:
My point was we DO NOT want to reward those that are present a lot.
If you gave a person who attended ONE raid something I've been trying to get for ten, I'd be very upset with you. Please consider rethinking your strategy, or outlining what you DO wish to reward.
If someone can come for one raid and take loot over someone who wipes alot with the guild to learn new things, you'll motivate bad behavior.
Quote:
Another point is that people expect to get rewarded for the effort they put in. If showing up doesn't help you'll have big problems holding the guild together.
Yep/
If you give the single raid person the same chance as the person who spent blood and sweat to get the guild there, you'll soon have trouble filling the 25-mans.|||Given your parameters, I'd advise Suicide Kings (SK). You basically make a list of everyone in the guild...start with a random roll if you like. When loot drops, everyone who wants it says so...and the top person (king) on the list gets it. That person drops to the bottom of everyone present (suicides), and everyone present moves up one rung on the latter.
The KEY factor is that only the people present rotate...those not there retain their positions; the others jump around them. Thus, you are not penalized for not being there...but you also get less loot as you, well, have to BE there to get loot right?
Here is an explicit example of a rotation in a 4 person raid of 8 guildmates.
Present members: Arnhold, Celia, Davin and Harmin.
Non-present members: Bethic, Edd, Forny and Gunther.
Initial Ranking: A B C D E F G H
The Broken Sword drops and both Celia and Davin want it. Celia is higher and wins.
New Ranking: A B D H E F G C
Notice how the underlined members, those not present, retain their exact same positions? They lose nothing by not being present. But those who are there DO gain something...Celia won a new sword, Arnhold retained his #1 spot and both Davin and Harmin climbed the ladder to a higher spot.
There are addons that will assist managing this. And you can make it more complicated by having separate ladders for tier tokens vs general loot if you like. New members typically come in on the bottom.
Good luck with the raiding.|||Quote:
The KEY factor is that only the people present rotate...those not there retain their positions; the others jump around them.
Interesting system....It has some merit, and appeal.|||dkp.
not rewarding people for commetment is like shooting yourself in your own knee. You want comitted people.
those with less attendeance will also get dkp points, just not as fast as the more attendeant ones. they will get items sooner or later aswell. Dkp is fair.|||If you're avoid dkp because of the complexity (fixed price vs bid, etc) you could use the SK method above or you could try a method that my guild has used a bit which is a weighted roll
Everyone starts with a normal 1-100 roll. If something drops and you want it, you roll. If you attend a raid and don't win anything (either because you didn't roll or lost the roll), you gain points. Let's say 10 points for this discussion. So, next raid, something drops, you roll 10-110. This gives you a slight advantage over the person who won something or wasn't there the last time. When you win something, your points reset to zero.
This has some advantages - no one has to manage bidding, pricing items, etc. It also has some disadvantages:
someone who doesn't really care about an item since it's just a minor upgrade can outroll someone for whom the item would be a major upgrade.
Someone could roll a 1-100 and hit a 96.... and someone could roll 80-180 and hit 88, losing out and perhaps losing a valuable upgrade to someone who is there for the first time.
I think you *do* want to give people an incentive to raid and to raid regularly. At the same time, you don't want people who can make it fewer times falling so far behind that they can never get any loot. There are DKP systems that compensate for this.
My guild is a casual raiding guild. We do not have a minimum attendence rating. We are doing 25 man since a few days and are a bit lost on how best to do the loot division. So I thought I would ask you guys for opinions.
We do not want dkp probably, because of the no raid attendence thing. We are doing normal no whine rolling in 10 mans, but are thinking about having a bit more control over the 25 man division.
Do any of you have a good idea of how to divide the loot, with rolling or other methodes without using dkp?
Greets, Shanna|||Loot Council would work, but I'd seriously advise you to look at one of the several DKP systems out there.
The council things tend to give more drama than an HBO series.
Rolling inevitably will lead to whining as well.
DKP can be setup in a multitude of ways - no attendance does not need to feature in your system. What DKP in short does is reward those people who helped you learn the fights and are present a lot, as opposed to the people who stepped in when it's a certain kill and got lucky on the roll.|||Quote:
Loot Council would work, but I'd seriously advise you to look at one of the several DKP systems out there.
Could you please tell what Loot Council is exactly? How does it work?
Quote:
What DKP in short does is reward those people who helped you learn the fights and are present a lot, as opposed to the people who stepped in when it's a certain kill and got lucky on the roll.
My point was we DO NOT want to reward those that are present a lot. We would just like to know if there are alternative solutions to DKP. Do anyone know of any?
Shanna|||There are very good reasons for using a DKP system of some sort. I really can't see any reason why you don't want to reward attendance tbh. Bringing as many of the same people as possible to a raid is a big plus when learning any encounter. Bringing a new raid means you'll have to learn the encounter over again.
Another point is that people expect to get rewarded for the effort they put in. If showing up doesn't help you'll have big problems holding the guild together.
To answer your question more directly I think you'll have to look into loot councils
http://www.wowwiki.com/Loot_Council
I recommend using some sort of dkp however. You can still overule who gets what if it doesn't feel right, but it should be used very sparingly. We do it when people clearly won't be able to use the item for raiding and somebody else that can wants it.|||Quote:
My point was we DO NOT want to reward those that are present a lot.
Why not? That seems counterproductive and does not reward those that are committed to your guild. Don't forget, committed guild members are what hold a guild together - but they need to feel like their commitment has given them something that the guy that just joined does not get. Without committed members, your guild will break up. And if you're not rewarding commitment, then that positive mentality that you're getting from the members may soon change as they don't feel appreciated.
So Joe hs been with you from day one when you started the guild (meaning he's most likely ran people in instances or at least ran with them when he didn't necessarily want to, he's helped others with quests etc), he comes to every raid, has helped the main group learn the encounters, shows up on time and stays till the end. Jimmy, who just joined the guild yesterday, started raiding with you b/c your **insert class** had to quit or his schedule changed or whatever. Jimmy is generally 5-10 mins late (making the entire raid wait) he learned the encounter with his previous guild (not a big deal - BUT he didn't go through the struggle, repair and pot costs, possible frustration, and late nights of learning the encounter with the rest of you), and he often has to go right at the end of the raid (depending on his bed time) leaving you to find another **insert class** on the fly.
But you want Jimmy to have the same rights to loot as Joe? Wtf? Joe has seriously earned his chance at the loot - what has Jimmy done?
IMO this means that eventually Joe is gonna find a guild that WILL reward his commitment and time that he extends to other guildies and the guild itself. Then all you'll have is a bunch of Jimmies that want something for nothing, because you have been rewarding them this way, and this is what they are starting to expect (show up once = get phat lootz [it doesn't matter if you're a regular raider]). At this point, you have a guild of loot whores, whiners, and people that space out or leave raids early or whenever they don't get what they want.
|||Quote:
My point was we DO NOT want to reward those that are present a lot.
If you gave a person who attended ONE raid something I've been trying to get for ten, I'd be very upset with you. Please consider rethinking your strategy, or outlining what you DO wish to reward.
If someone can come for one raid and take loot over someone who wipes alot with the guild to learn new things, you'll motivate bad behavior.
Quote:
Another point is that people expect to get rewarded for the effort they put in. If showing up doesn't help you'll have big problems holding the guild together.
Yep/
If you give the single raid person the same chance as the person who spent blood and sweat to get the guild there, you'll soon have trouble filling the 25-mans.|||Given your parameters, I'd advise Suicide Kings (SK). You basically make a list of everyone in the guild...start with a random roll if you like. When loot drops, everyone who wants it says so...and the top person (king) on the list gets it. That person drops to the bottom of everyone present (suicides), and everyone present moves up one rung on the latter.
The KEY factor is that only the people present rotate...those not there retain their positions; the others jump around them. Thus, you are not penalized for not being there...but you also get less loot as you, well, have to BE there to get loot right?
Here is an explicit example of a rotation in a 4 person raid of 8 guildmates.
Present members: Arnhold, Celia, Davin and Harmin.
Non-present members: Bethic, Edd, Forny and Gunther.
Initial Ranking: A B C D E F G H
The Broken Sword drops and both Celia and Davin want it. Celia is higher and wins.
New Ranking: A B D H E F G C
Notice how the underlined members, those not present, retain their exact same positions? They lose nothing by not being present. But those who are there DO gain something...Celia won a new sword, Arnhold retained his #1 spot and both Davin and Harmin climbed the ladder to a higher spot.
There are addons that will assist managing this. And you can make it more complicated by having separate ladders for tier tokens vs general loot if you like. New members typically come in on the bottom.
Good luck with the raiding.|||Quote:
The KEY factor is that only the people present rotate...those not there retain their positions; the others jump around them.
Interesting system....It has some merit, and appeal.|||dkp.
not rewarding people for commetment is like shooting yourself in your own knee. You want comitted people.
those with less attendeance will also get dkp points, just not as fast as the more attendeant ones. they will get items sooner or later aswell. Dkp is fair.|||If you're avoid dkp because of the complexity (fixed price vs bid, etc) you could use the SK method above or you could try a method that my guild has used a bit which is a weighted roll
Everyone starts with a normal 1-100 roll. If something drops and you want it, you roll. If you attend a raid and don't win anything (either because you didn't roll or lost the roll), you gain points. Let's say 10 points for this discussion. So, next raid, something drops, you roll 10-110. This gives you a slight advantage over the person who won something or wasn't there the last time. When you win something, your points reset to zero.
This has some advantages - no one has to manage bidding, pricing items, etc. It also has some disadvantages:
someone who doesn't really care about an item since it's just a minor upgrade can outroll someone for whom the item would be a major upgrade.
Someone could roll a 1-100 and hit a 96.... and someone could roll 80-180 and hit 88, losing out and perhaps losing a valuable upgrade to someone who is there for the first time.
I think you *do* want to give people an incentive to raid and to raid regularly. At the same time, you don't want people who can make it fewer times falling so far behind that they can never get any loot. There are DKP systems that compensate for this.
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