Saturday, April 21, 2012

Minimum requirements for beginning 25-mans (Gruul's)

My guild is currently in the process of trying to organize our first 25-man (we're looking at Gruul's.)

I am attempting to post gear minimums, but I'm honestly not sure what gear mins should be for every class. I was assuming mostly epics, but in terms of MT, +healing, +dmg, etc. - what should we be looking for to know if we're ready to go?

Also, I may be opening up a can of worms, but without some *very* nice gear - how much of a place do Arms/Fury warriors, Ret Pallies, Feral DPS druids (not OT) have in 25-mans?|||Unfortunately, the answer to this question is so dependent on raid makeup and skill that you'll get twenty different answers, and they all may be correct.

We use ret pally's, feral droods, and dps warriors in 25-mans (SSC, TK) alot. They are all just another form of melee....|||I am probably going to get bashed for this, but here is my opinion.

1 green max for gruul.

4 blue max.

NON 70 epics (like lvl 66 items etc) count as blues.

If you follow those guidelines you should be ok.

Gruul is post kara, people should have the majority of drops they need from kara before going to gruul.

I wouldn't recommend cat dps, fury warriors or ret pallies. In your first attempts you will have more succes if you take more *true classes.

That being said, it can be done.. and i'm not saying you can't. But if you replace your retadins, fury warriors and cats with mages/locks/rogues you will have better success.

Just my opinion (we did gruul with boomkin/retadins and cat dps at one point so i've seen both methods in action)|||Quote:








In your first attempts you will have more succes if you take more *true classes.




Not sure what a 'true class' is...but...

I wish my guild believed this....I'd much rather they bother the priests to come, rather than my holy pally....
|||I think he means pure(er) dps classes. A mage or a rogue will, for equivalent gear/skill, put out way more dps than a retadin or a kitty. Since Gruul is basically a dps race they'll do better with better dps. Of course, if the rogue is hopelessly distracted and dies to the first shatter all of the time while the cat is on their toes about avoiding that... the cat will do more fight damage.

Oh and.. take 7 healers to start. Or plan on wiping until people get used to Shatter etc. A large part of the damage he does is avoidable if everyone knows what to do and has a bit of practice, but early on it's not uncommon to lose a healer due to people getting used to the fight... no biggie if you have 7 healers, a strain if you start with 5.

BTW, I'd be more stringent than rgirty. Zero greens except in some very rare cases where a green is better than the blues for that slot/class/spec combo. By time you hit Gruul you really should have seen Kara at least 10x. Combine that with heroics, crafting and some of the blue rewards esp in SMV and there's really no excuse for greens in 95% of the slots. Also make sure people have enchants and gems on. If they're starting out they might not have the best of everything but epics really should have blue quality gems and the best enchants for that slot/class.|||Quote:








I think he means pure(er) dps classes. A mage or a rogue will, for equivalent gear/skill, put out way more dps than a retadin or a kitty. Since Gruul is basically a dps race they'll do better with better dps. Of course, if the rogue is hopelessly distracted and dies to the first shatter all of the time while the cat is on their toes about avoiding that... the cat will do more fight damage.

Oh and.. take 7 healers to start. Or plan on wiping until people get used to Shatter etc. A large part of the damage he does is avoidable if everyone knows what to do and has a bit of practice, but early on it's not uncommon to lose a healer due to people getting used to the fight... no biggie if you have 7 healers, a strain if you start with 5.

BTW, I'd be more stringent than rgirty. Zero greens except in some very rare cases where a green is better than the blues for that slot/class/spec combo. By time you hit Gruul you really should have seen Kara at least 10x. Combine that with heroics, crafting and some of the blue rewards esp in SMV and there's really no excuse for greens in 95% of the slots. Also make sure people have enchants and gems on. If they're starting out they might not have the best of everything but epics really should have blue quality gems and the best enchants for that slot/class.




I also recommend mages/locks over retadins and fury warriors for a simple reason.

mages/locks have access (with tailoring) to very strong gear simply with tailoring and kara. They can provide the dps boost you need to beat the growth timer on gruul.

Fury warriors and retadins at this level of play have yet to reach the potential they will reach later when more gear is available (tho this has changed some with boj and pvp gear)

Just my two cp.

The reason I said 1 green is, there are some good green trinkets out there..and thats a hard spot to find an epic for.

I'm 4/6 ssc and 3/4tk and still run 2 blue trinkets.

Yes, take 7 healers.

Meson: I listed the classes I recommended replacing.|||Ah, good point. And one I should have thought if given that I have a 69 spriest... :)|||Quote:








Meson: I listed the classes I recommended replacing.




I see that, now.

As for minimum gear questions in general, what I've seen mostly is guilds specifying a minimum, but immediately abandoning it (rightly so) and trying the instance anyway, once they have 25 people to try it.....

I always recommend that you don't lose as much by trying and failing (in fact, you could learn more by doing so) than you would by not trying at all....

This all assumes that you have free time that wouldn't otherwise be used doing something else.|||If all of your raiders are not properly PvE-specc'd, have the appropriate "blue" gems (or higher), and proper PvE enchants for their gear, your DPS can have problems getting Gruul down enough before Growth 10 -- the DPS benchmark you want to hit.

Main and Off-Tanks should have 15K+ health and be uncrushable, at a minimum. They should be the best-geared members of the raid.

Mage / Warlock caster DPS will help immensely with DPS until you learn the encounter and can sub in other DPS classes (such as Retadins and Feral cats). The main thing about having "too much" melee DPS comes with cave-ins and having too many together in order to be able to spread out enough without wiping out 25% of your raid.|||as long as your tanks and healers are geared from kara and you have 2 good solid hunters in gruop and 1 boomkin for HKM part then you shouldnt have to many probs tanks dont need 15k+ hp and to be uncrushable, but they should have unbuffed 13k hp and use shield block a lot but as they have tanked prince and bane they shouldnt have probs tanking in gruuls. also to tank the mage you need a well geared pvp mage, i think this is prob the only place pvp gear comes into pve as a winner, trying to get a mage with 12k hp in pve gear is hard but we have 2 mages that live in arena and they can both spell steal tank the mage with no probs at all.

the most important part of any 25 man raid is making sure you set groups up so they buff each other as best as poss. boomkin with mages, shadow priests with healers and lock/pala with the tanks. dont fall for the 5 man dungeon and healer in every group scenario like a lot of new raiders try to do as you will gimp your most effective dps buffs.

gruuls is a learning curve but we take 4 or 5 non kara/heroic geared dps on some of the 25 man raids if all our strong raiders cant make it that night.

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